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Old 10-08-2006, 21:40   #16
Bob Norson
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Hey hellosailor... NDZ's?? yeah, I don't have a problem with the idea.. I do not pump a toilet in the marina, for example, and appreciate that others don't. Perhaps a swimming beach where situation permits solids drifting toward people swimming.

I will look over those sites with close attention later (thank you!, all information is good) but if they are saying they were able to grow a community of E-coli from sea water... of course they can. E-coli is everywhere. But for it to be dangerous it must be in the millions per cc. I was informed that E-coli is used as a counter because it typlifies the counts of other pathogens that are harder to tabulate.

Goostyla.. yes, correct. Our **** is something elses food. Mammalian waste is very important to the ecology, also can be un-balancing in abnormal quanity. And to address the very important point from Sluissa.. a while back Morteton Bay near Brisbane was having problems with blooms of blue green alge... so who gets the blame... the huge sewerage treatment plant or those bloody yachts!!! go ahead, take a guess!!

Cheers

Bob
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Old 10-08-2006, 22:58   #17
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well, there really are very few boats in this bay, and most of them are the ones that sit at their dock 24/7 and never get used and only about 2 or 3 are even big enough to have heads, so it would be kinda hard to blame all this on boaties, but still if one of those boats did happen to discharge into that bay, they could be fined, while the paper plant dumps several tons a day into the water with nothing said by the officials

I think everyone needs to go back and read that book again, you know the one, "Everybody Poops." Maybe then they'll realize that it all has to go somewhere and the water is as good, or even better place as any.

But yes, I would be against people discharging in marinas or near to beaches that people use regularly. I'm just asking for some equality. If they're gonna fine boaties, fine the landies too. Or don't fine either.
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Old 11-08-2006, 00:29   #18
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NDZ"s are the typical crap that passes for environmental legislation. Environmental laws are feel good legislation that often attacl cripples and do nothing and may even hurt the environment. After a severe rain storm, the typical municipal sewage treatment plant will dump enough s**t into the surrounding waters in a day or two to equal the total effluent discharge of every yacht that ever existed on the planet. It looks good on the politicians resume to pass NDZ's and they know it's good for their careers to look like they are environmentalists. The yachties are too passive to make the ultimate objection by voting against the Polliticians and are too small a population to have much effect, in any case. In short, yachties are an easy target so that the 'polls' can look like they are doing something, when they aren't.

I've always used the Raritan LectraSan just in case someone has a straw up my head discharge and is drinking the effluent. Figure it's a responsible, though may not be necessary, thing to do. The LectraSan treats sewage to a higher level of safety than almost any municipal system as long as you either are in saltwater or add salt to the inlet water. They macerate the solids into a fine sludge so do introduce some solids into the water but it's a totally safe sludge. I'm willing to pay nearly a 'boat unit' so I don't produce any dangerous discharge. Unfortunately, the PC crowd has made it illegal and want to force me to turn my boat into a floating cess pool.

Now the typical eco idiot is going to say the solids are going to mess up the natural balance of the eco system, horse pucky. If every yachty in a marina ate bad Mexican food for a year, used the boats facilities and pumped it directly overboard without any treatment, it would barely be noticable. In fact, it probably wouldn't egual the non-sewage runoff of a typical subdivision of similar population on a normal day.

Not too many months ago, the pressure sewage pipe that takes Waikiki's sewage to the treatment plant busted. The city decided to dump the sewage of more than a 100,000 people into the near stagnant Alawai canal that dumps into the Alawai Harbor before exiting into the ocean right in the middle of Waikiki. This situation lasted for several days and spewed out MILLIONS of gallons of raw sewagetill they could find a fix for the problem. Once they finally made a temporary fix for the leak, the whole area flushed out and cleaned up in less than a week. Waikiki wasn't even seriously impacted at its height.

One drunk that fell into the harbor at the height of the spill did die. Unfortunately, he was a serious drunk who had already damaged his liver at only 32 years of age and had cut the hell out of his legs on the lava rocks, coral and barnacles when he fell numerous times in the process of getting out. He then passed out and slept off the drunk till the following morning before cleaning himself up. When he checked into the hospital later in the day, he still had a blood alcohol level that would have rendered most men comatose. In short, the staph that is always present in seawater might have done him in with the massive infection sights, low resistance and poor hygiene that he presented.

BTW, my current boat does have a holding tank and the boat smells like s**t no matter how much deoderant and chemicals I dump into it. You really have to be a DA to want to carry your sewage around with you. Can't wait to get the LectraSan hooked up and ditch the s**t.

Peter O.
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Old 11-08-2006, 03:02   #19
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Weyalan,a holding tank is just that!It's really not difficult to understand.It holds things.And for all those "sailors & cruisers" out there that just want to be legal in regards to sanitation to get by,SHAME on you!!!"Bucket & Chuck-it" "100 yrd's off shore" "Maccerate it" Little fine particals,that will fix it!OK,so it might cost a little bit more to render ya dropings safer to the enviroment,but,isn't it worth it in the long run.For you Weylan,It starts here,think a bit further down the line and what ever you do,think long and hard as to what you really want the outcome to be.Crap in the water where ya live,sail in,or visit.Or peace of mind knowing that what is legal,dosen't allways protect the enviroment.When I do finally get my bit of floating dream Im very sure that above all else I wont be shiting in my own or anyone elses back yard.It's not just boaters,every person on the planet should think this way,Bob Norson was on about composting heads,even though it's not really feasable on a boat that you live on permanently due to time it takes to de-compose verse's temp needed to aquire such decomposition,it still has merits,and I truly think there is a better way to manage poo and the oceans,but,just staying legal,isn't one of them.mudnut.
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Old 11-08-2006, 15:09   #20
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Greetings.. Hello sailor..

I checked out the URL you sugggested and I do not have any problem with it at all. The focus of the very brief report of a study was on how fast human pathogens died in sea water. Shame they didn't give the starting concentration levels, only the time it took to kill 90%. The study concludes that the pathogens died faster in real sea water than they did in the laboratory. You have to also keep in mind that besides the rate of decay of the pathogens you have to calculate the rate of dilution when waste hits the water. A E-coli count in the thousands per CC is normal for your drinking water. I feel the study supports everything I have said and everything that was in the report I put a link up for in a previous post. The only new bit was their indication that E-coli might be less resistant than other nasties. This is a new idea. E-coli has been an accepted indicator for many years. I would like to see this conclusion supported by further study before I would buy it as it contradicts many previous studies but should be worth following.

In the last couple years I have published articles by professional police procecutors on the validity and workability of the law regarding marine sewerage, Marine scientists on the facts of marine sewerage, Australias most respected marine author and general boating authority on the hypocracy of the laws, actual debates on the issue between me and a spokesman ("media advisor" is the term he used) for the office of Paul Lucas, the minister of transport and marine for Queensland, and other articles I have written using the factual data that I could source to work out the numbers as they truly relate to the boating community.

The inescapable conclusion of it all is that there is a lot more politics involved in this than concern for the environment. Despite repeated requests to the government for the research data they 'surely must have had to justify' the regime and days spent by myself on the web and other sources looking for info, no data has been found by me to support the kind of laws boaties have to put up with. Nothing! Zip! Nada!

When you look for reports of problems with municipal waste you have volumes!!!!!

What I find in opposition to boaties on this are (typicaly) holyer than thou landlubbers making their best defense for themselves by accusing another, (there is a particular breed in Australia that just likes to stick some one else for anything they can, ugly spin off of the "tall Poppy Syndrome")and environmentalists of genuine intent but miss-informed by the deluge of propaganda. I can not take anything on face value, thats my job! I look for the facts to justify any assertion and they aren't there for marine sewerage laws.

Anyone who is interested can click the link to view a selection of articles published by the Coastal Passage on the subject, including the ones mentioned above. The facts may surprise.

http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/poo.html


cheers
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Old 30-09-2006, 17:46   #21
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Holding tanks

The air head type of composting head is compact,easy to build and easy to use, no smell. Being contained it's legal everywhere.You don't need the flap over the big hole, just a stainless cap , like a stainless shallow plate or ashtray. Remove it for a dump.
Run the vent aft, then vertically for 6 feet or more.
Yachts make a politically vulnerable , handy political scapegoat. Politicians who support such scapegoat politics need to be remionded of the possibility of holding tank contents being found on their front lawns or being mailed to them in their offices and homes in ice cream buckets as a form of protest( or pumped thru the mail slot)
Brent.
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Old 30-09-2006, 19:05   #22
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My new boat has a Type I MSD that treats the waste before discharge. Type II sytems are for larger vessles with multiple heads. It basically removes all the bacteria before discharge. There have been two popular brands. Lectrasan and Purasan. Ours is a Purasan. It uses a chlorine cartridge and uses fewer amps to complete the Lectrasan process. It treats the small tank about every other flush as one batch and runs a 2 minute cycle. It requires a macerating head prior to treatment. The head has really nothing to do with the MSD system. You connect the head to the system and the water supply to both the head and the MSD. They all use a fair number of amps but as notes it's not a long cycle.

Currently the holding tank on our boat was converterd to a spare fuel tank, but the PO was considering changing it back to a holding tank with a Y valve so you could enter NDZ's. the alternative is to pad lock the door to the head. Given that the waste could still be treated before it went in the holding tank I guess you could dump it after you left the NDZ.

In the overall bigger picture. Boat waste does not mean anything compared to cities with marginal treatement systems and urban / agricultural runoff. Sometimes a symbol is better than nothing and boats are it for now. After all it was the very "least" they could do so they did it.
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Old 01-10-2006, 09:22   #23
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Originally Posted by Pblais
... I guess you could dump it after you left the NDZ....
I believe it is in the US Regs (not sure) certainly Raritan states that dumping treated waste from a holding tank is equivalent to dumping untreated waste. They say after the waste enters the holding tank the bacteria count starts to increase.

I've set my Lectrasan/Vacuflush system so I can flush with or without treatment. Ony use treatment for solid waste, don't believe this is legal in US waters. The "Y" valve either directs waste directly overboard or to the holding tank.
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Old 01-10-2006, 12:05   #24
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With holding tanks you want to make sure you get good venting as this promotes the aerobic oxidation that actually breaks the waste down. when venting is poor then you get anaerobic oxidation and that is what makes the really bad smells.

Solid and liquid wste needs to be treated or held within the 3 mile limit of US water. Type I and Type II MSD systems are legal except in NDZ's. All waste applies. We have only one on the Cheapeake Bay located south of Annapolis and north of the Patuxent River in the Herring Bay area.
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Old 01-10-2006, 15:02   #25
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Originally Posted by mudnut
Weyalan,a holding tank is just that!It's really not difficult to understand.It holds things.And for all those "sailors & cruisers" out there that just want to be legal in regards to sanitation to get by,SHAME on you!!!"Bucket & Chuck-it" "100 yrd's off shore" "Maccerate it" Little fine particals,that will fix it!OK,so it might cost a little bit more to render ya dropings safer to the enviroment,but,isn't it worth it in the long run.For you Weylan,It starts here,think a bit further down the line and what ever you do,think long and hard as to what you really want the outcome to be.Crap in the water where ya live,sail in,or visit.Or peace of mind knowing that what is legal,dosen't allways protect the enviroment.When I do finally get my bit of floating dream Im very sure that above all else I wont be shiting in my own or anyone elses back yard.It's not just boaters,every person on the planet should think this way,Bob Norson was on about composting heads,even though it's not really feasable on a boat that you live on permanently due to time it takes to de-compose verse's temp needed to aquire such decomposition,it still has merits,and I truly think there is a better way to manage poo and the oceans,but,just staying legal,isn't one of them.mudnut.
Your argument is a classic straw-man fallacy.

I am not, despite your assertions, "just trying to do the bare minimum to be legal" (and I cannot see how my posts gave you that impression. You know nothing about me, nor my attitude or impact on the environment).

The point of questioning the legal requirements, if any, is that it would be "disappointing" to design a really nice holding tank system (I am a design engineer by profession, btw) only to find that it did not conform to some recognised standard or legal requirement. For all I knew, there may have been an internationally accepted standard, and unless one asks the question, one remains ignorant.
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Old 01-10-2006, 15:14   #26
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Weyalan-
Actually, as best I can understand the issue, if you had no holding tank and simply had a platform which allowed a human sitting on it to deposit feces directly into the water...

That would be legal. Apparently humans are allowed to directly discharge the same materials that their vessels are NOT allowed to discharge.

So, you build a small "moon pool" inside the head, with interchangeable seat and secure watertight lid over it...and you've saved all that time and space the holding tank and treatment system could have taken up.

Go figure. (shrug)
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Old 01-10-2006, 15:15   #27
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For all I knew, there may have been an internationally accepted standard, and unless one asks the question, one remains ignorant.
So far none and there are a lot of variations around the world. It's just one of those things you need to watch out for. Sort of like clearing customs.
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Old 12-10-2006, 22:28   #28
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Holding tanks

Canada's new right wing loony tune government has just proposed regulations that would make it illlegal to dump a marine head anywhere in BC waters inside a line 15 miles outside the west coast of Vancouver Island or the Queen Charlottes, while simply studying the discharge of huge amounts of raw sewage by Vancouver and Victoria.He is oiffering anyone who doesn't want to do the return trip , often hundreds of miles in stormy weather , ten years in the slammer or a ten thousand dollar fine.
Perhaps its time for cruisers to start mailing their discharges to conservative members of parliament , or dumping it thru the mail slots of their consituency offices to give them a sample of protests to come.
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Old 04-01-2007, 17:18   #29
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I am facing the same challenge. I have recently read a very informative article at the boatbuilding.com/article.php/MarineSanitationFactvsFolklore

Enjoy
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Old 04-01-2007, 20:29   #30
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The Good part is the price.. under $1500 Au which is a grand under what the lectra san sells for here. the web site is Sani-Loo Sewage Treatment System - Gradon Marine - Home and the gadget is called the "Sani-Loo" Haven't heard a bad word about it in over two years of on the market. Maybe cheaper than tanks.

Cheers
Bob, I was going to invest in a Sani-Loo system but when I checked out their website I found that it is intended to be used in addition to, rather than instead of, a holding tank. So, since I have to build the holding tanks anyway, I might as well hang on to my money untill the law requires me to fit a treatment system. ( I will make provision for a treatment system in future though.)
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