Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-08-2014, 10:43   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Concord, NC
Boat: 1986 CS 30
Posts: 207
Send a message via Yahoo to Hank Kivett
Refer Insulation

My boat is equip with a cold plate...I want to add more insulation around the outside of the box. The problem is between the hull and the box itself..I am toying with the idea of spray foam as well as insulation board.
__________________

__________________
Hank Kivett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 11:38   #2
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,652
Re: Refer Insulation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Kivett View Post
...I want to add more insulation around the outside of the box...
*Why?*
__________________

__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 16:41   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Concord, NC
Boat: 1986 CS 30
Posts: 207
Send a message via Yahoo to Hank Kivett
Re: Refer Insulation

Why ?....I have installed solar and at present my refer is drawing the most amps...but installing insulation and some adjustments to the thermostate i can cut the cycles down there by cutting or reducing some amp draw.
__________________
Hank Kivett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 16:50   #4
Guy
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: So. Oregon, USA
Boat: Seafarer36c
Posts: 4,308
Re: Refer Insulation

Normally one talks about adding insulation to the inside not the outside. I need to add insulation to the inside of our refer.
__________________
Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 17:10   #5
Registered User
 
crazyoldboatguy's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Chicago
Boat: Alden auxiliary ketch 48'
Posts: 858
Re: Refer Insulation

Hard to add insulation unless you remove the unit, unless you can really gain access. Expanding foam will absorb much moisture and could likely cause problems. The issue is that unless you have 4" insulation around a fridge and 6" around the freezer, ambient moisture/humidity will condense on/inside the expanded foam insulation until it is saturated, reducing the insulative qualities and encouraging more condensation which will seep into surrounding structures, etc. Paradise is so much fun.
__________________
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
crazyoldboatguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 18:01   #6
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,652
Re: Refer Insulation

OK, so you're saying your reefer/freezer was inadequately/inefficiently built, and you want to improve its efficiency.

Descriptions, photos or sketches showing what you have would help.

Is there a 100% vapor barrier? Radiation barrier? What insulation and how thick? What size box (interior dimensions)?

Edit to add: Front or top opening? What gaskets? And what machinery?
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 18:37   #7
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,653
Re: Refer Insulation

Everything you need to do a nice clean job that will make a difference in your daily Amp usage can be bought in a run to Home Depot. Oh I know, I know the “experts” will wax on and on about pour foam, ripping out your current box, adding $2000 in vacuum panels, but as a bang for your buck project, you just can’t go wrong with adding some Polyisocyanurate insulation to the inside of your box. Cover the insulation with fiberglass “bathroom board” , using 3M 77 Contact adhesive, while sealing the seams with 4200 or 5200 and you have a vapor/water proof insulation panel that will save you Amps.

Easy weekend project. Doesn't matter your box size, shoe size, refrigeration system or current insulation thinckess. Maybe you can only do one wall...so it will still help. Maybe you can only do three walls....even batter. Every wall you can add insulation to will make a difference, so don't let the "perfect" be an enemy of making it "better", especially when you can do it for so little money as a DIY Project. Every inch you add will bring along an R value of 6.5, so stack away baby and save those amps. Most boxes are way to big anyway and have lots of wasted space/volume in them, so why not fill that wasted void with insulation and save amps?

I just helped with this exact project last week in San Diego and have done several myself and if you take your time and be clean, you can get a great clean professional look. The hardest part is making your templates that will fit through your box opening, but it's just a puzzle game piece by piece.

Here are the 5 materials you will need, less some blue tape, large razor knife and beer:

The insulation (available in differing thicknesses)
Search Results forÂ*polyisocyanurateÂ*at The Home Depot

The New refrigerator interrior barrier
http://www.homedepot.com/s/bathroom%...20board?NCNI-5

The Foil tape for sealing the cut edges of the PolyIso Foam
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Reflectix...T210/100318556

The spray adhesive for sticking sticking the foam panels together and attaching the top finish board
3M Super 77 16.75 fl. oz. Multipurpose Spray Adhesive-77-CC at The Home Depot

Our old friend 5200 (I like 4200 fast cure personally, but your choice)
3M 3 oz. Marine Adhesive Sealant-PN5203 at The Home Depot
__________________
Rich Boren Goodbye Morro Bay...Hello La Paz, Mexico and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 18:52   #8
Guy
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: So. Oregon, USA
Boat: Seafarer36c
Posts: 4,308
Re: Refer Insulation

That was a great post. I am trying to figure out what I can do to our box from what they sell in down town Fronteras, Guatemala. No Home Depot's but there is foam, resin, who knows what else, maybe even some 5200.
__________________
Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 19:06   #9
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,653
Re: Refer Insulation

The blue and pink boad stuff they have in Mexico isn't as good as PolyIso, but the truth of the matter is if you have **** insulation in the box now even if you use something that's not the best choice...well do it on a temp basis until you can get some better stuff...because it will make a difference.

In our San Diego shop we have a 7FC box that we use for testing and we can add 1" panels of PolyIso to the exterrior of the box ranging from 1" to 8" thick. It's amazing to see the amp hour differences for the different insulation thicknesses. I guess in a way it confrims the laws of physics, but as a data nerd geek, it's still amazing to see what an extra 1" or 2" of insulation can save you in terms of Amp Hours per day.
__________________
Rich Boren Goodbye Morro Bay...Hello La Paz, Mexico and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 19:35   #10
Registered User
 
autumnbreeze27's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cruising Mexico
Boat: 50' Herreshoff Ketch
Posts: 967
Re: Refer Insulation

We had a refer company come out and give us a quote for some work on our setup. I used that white foam board you linked to, he said that was no good, as it will absorb water, and that I should use the pink stuff they sell at Home Depot.
Owens Corning FOAMULAR 150 Scored Squared Edge R10 Insulation Board 2 in. x 4 ft. x 8 ft.-45W at The Home Depot
Foamular XPS resists moisture and retains R-value even after exposure to standing water & wet soil.
__________________
autumnbreeze27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2014, 20:09   #11
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,653
Re: Refer Insulation

Quote:
Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27 View Post
We had a refer company come out and give us a quote for some work on our setup. I used that white foam board you linked to, he said that was no good, as it will absorb water, and that I should use the pink stuff they sell at Home Depot.
Owens Corning FOAMULAR 150 Scored Squared Edge R10 Insulation Board 2 in. x 4 ft. x 8 ft.-45W at The Home Depot
Foamular XPS resists moisture and retains R-value even after exposure to standing water & wet soil.
PolyIso is yellow, not white, so not sure if you used the same thing?
But your expert traded an R value of 12.9 for 2" of Polyiso for an R value of 10 (29% worse per inch) for a water absorption worry issue that if PolyIsocyanurate is installed properly isn't something to worry about. (At least not in the life span of you owning the boat anyway.) Heck and if after 10yrs you have to reinsulate for a few hundred bucks and a weekend, I’ll trade that any day for that better 29% in insulation value and all the Amp Hours it will save for the same thickness. This is where the “No good” comment from the experts has to be put in context. The foil covering and using the foil tape on the cut edges is important because you can get this foam without the foil vapor/moisture barrier.

If the moisture issue freaks you out, add a box of heavy duty trash bags to the project list and enclose/foil tape up each piece of polyIso as you puzzle piece them into the box (spraying the 77 Spray in the Bag to attach the plastic bag to the insulation). I personally wouldn't mess with it...but....that's a way to deal with the moisture issue without giving up the 29%....a third less insulation in the same space really matters!
__________________
Rich Boren Goodbye Morro Bay...Hello La Paz, Mexico and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 09:16   #12
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,652
Re: Refer Insulation

SV--it sounds like you are recommending solutions which you have not tried or proven.

I've never used the insulation you are recommending, so can't speak to it directly. But building a reefer/freezer with insulation that is known to absorb moisture and fail early seems very unwise.
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 09:23   #13
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,653
Re: Refer Insulation

Technautics has been building refrigeration systems and reinsulating boxes for boats since 1968. R-value trumps the relative difference in moisture absorption between the two insulation boards in our view and experience. You may not agree, which is fine, but after years of doing this we are not jonny-come-lately to the reefer insulation game giving shabby information for those looking to reinsulate.

This is where the experts get hung up in our view, but they haven't actually TESTED the water absorption of PolyIso when installed correctly, which is their weak point, because we have. The problem people get into is that they don't have the time or testing facilty to try out the different approaches so they are left with the "this is better than that" comments and advice without a real understanding of the Why and Criteria. If you are building a new boat from the stringgers up, and have 6" of room all around your box then sure, use the closed cell foam that has an R-value of 29% less than the Polyiso. But if you are like the vast majority of cruisers that have an existing box and do not have the space, energy, time, or money to rip up the galley counter but want to improve the **** insulation in your old Box then "R-value for the Inch" wins the day every time = Foil lined PolyIso.
__________________
Rich Boren Goodbye Morro Bay...Hello La Paz, Mexico and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 09:28   #14
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,652
Re: Refer Insulation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
SV--it sounds like you are recommending solutions which you have not tried or proven...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Technautics has been building refrigeration systems and reinsulating boxes for boats since 1968...
Does avoiding the question mean you have not tried the taped-together-garbage-bag-vapor-barrier you recommended?
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2014, 09:39   #15
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,653
Re: Refer Insulation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Does avoiding the question mean you have not tried the taped-together-garbage-bag-vapor-barrier you recommended?
Avoiding? No, not really. Just filtering things out. Which is actually more fun than giving you the answer at this point quite honestly. You do this for a living...so I'll step aside and let you answer your own question, defer to the expert on this one so to speak. Besides, I gotta get back to work, I'm helping with a freezer box reinsulation today here in Morro Bay and I told them I would be over by 9AM to get going...
__________________

__________________
Rich Boren Goodbye Morro Bay...Hello La Paz, Mexico and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
insulation

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Least expensive functional 12volt refer solutions Jack Long Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 17 10-08-2008 20:20
90 degree cap for standard refer? Jack Long Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 5 30-07-2008 02:31
Engel Refer Unit Kai Nui Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 27 22-06-2006 06:39
Refer & A/C Corrosion GordMay Construction, Maintenance & Refit 1 18-10-2005 12:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:00.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.