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Old 23-03-2011, 21:37   #46
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

hi,

great information on the forum.

does anyone have an opinion on the "recovery engineering" version of the katadyn survivor 35 manually operated.

purchased several over the internet for myself and family members for emergency water supply in event of disaster etc.

when I opened the package ..no mention of Katadyn.

is this unit equivalent quality & performance to the genuine kayadyn labelled model? (they look identical bar the names)

am considering returning this to the seller as I feel quite mis-led, as it is definitely not exactly as was advertised.

your opinion/s would be appreciated..

cheers

Greg
Sydney Australia
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Old 23-03-2011, 22:41   #47
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Greg:

Not to worry. Recovery Engineering was the company that originally engineered the Survivor 35. It was designed for the military to their specs and is still used as emergency equipment in many military applications. One of the requirements of Recovery Engineering's contract with the military (according to Alan Lizee, president of Katadyn North America) was that the company needed to try to develop a commercial version of that watermaker. This led to the POWERSurvivor 35, which was basically not much more than the original (manually-operated) Survivor 35 with a 12VDC motor attached.

To help clear up your understandable confusion, after producing the early watermaker models (35 & 80), Recovery engineering developed the PUR line of other water treatment products in the late 1990s. Their success with domestic, under-the-sink water purification filters, etc., led to their being bought up by Proctor & Gamble sometime around 2000. P&G was interested in the domestic product line and considered the marine watermaker division a high-risk, low-profit operation, and subsequently let it atrophy in the "corporate corner." Fortunately, a few years later, the Swiss company Katadyn bought the marine operation from P&G and, of course, started using their own product name: Katadyn.

I am only aware of one engineering change to the 35 in all the intervening years: company personnel told me that the original military specs required a certain stainless steel alloy to be used for the poppet valve springs. Those springs were later found to corrode and fail, and were one of the signature problems that plagued the early PowerSurvivor 35s and 80s. The alloy was changed and the problem was solved.

Bottom line, the Survivor 35 has remained the same good product throughout its history over more than two decades. I can't think of a better device for an emergency water supply.
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Old 23-03-2011, 23:26   #48
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

wow..thanks Gary. awesome information. that helps enormously.

just 2 other questions

relating to what you said about the stainless steel alloy in the poppet valve springs.

was that in all the "recovery engineering" models and then was changed (to correct the problem) when kayadyn took over.

am i interpreting your comments correctly?

and if so, what potential risk do you consider it to be for the units (best guess) given that their manufacture date is 1993?

i plan to hang on to my unit indefinitely and in light of this information I might sell or return the units and buy newer a katadyn version.

alot of this is about peace of mind for me and would like feel confident i have the right one for the long haul.

what do you reckon?

very much appreciate your assistance.

kind regards

Greg
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Old 24-03-2011, 00:15   #49
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

I just found this thread - great information. And sorry about the loss of the boat - that must have been awful.

I bought a 35 in 1994 IIRC, and used it down Mexico, Central America to Panama, the Caribbean, and my first Atlantic crossing. As others have recommended, I used it to top up one (15 gallon) tank and kept the balance of my water as it came from the tap. I had no complaints - it worked as advertised. There were some that had problems in the Sea of Cortes because of the high salinity there causing problems, but I read that in the SSCA newsletters rather than first hand encounters. I made wooden slides for the mounting rails and put connectors on the wiring, so removal was a breeze in the event of needing to abandon ship. I would have cut the hoses to free it. The abandon ship bag had some wrenches, the handle assembly, and the overboard water pickup kit with duplex hose so I was ready to convert to manual use in a liferaft. The first thing I would have done was toss overboard the heavy motor...

While in the Med, circa 2002, I installed the 40E upgrade kit. I also bought a spare membrane and assembled a hand 35 for the abandon ship bag. After less than 20 hours the the pump on the 40E failed - I was able to get some fresh product water through the membrane but didn't biocide it. I got tied up with health, and other, problems and didn't get back to it for 4 years. With what I had heard about how delicate the membranes are, I just ordered a new one along with a seal kit (at which time I got the new SS shaft). As it turns out there was no growth on the membrane and it seems to work fine. The cause of the problem was a seal on a poppet valve that had slipped out of place and kept the valve open. The upshot is that I now have a 40E intalled (which worked flawlessly on the last Atlantic crossing), a manual 35 in the abandon ship bag, and an extra membrane. Once I get the new engine installed and the boat kicked into shape I will test all three membranes on the trip to the Puget Sound with the TDS meter I bought last year, and then offer one for sale if they all test OK.

While these RO units are (relatively) slow at producing water, their amperage is low so they work well with solar and wind systems. I hate to run the engine just to make electricity. And they are compact, so perfect for me. For those who have larger boats and a cruising style that requires running the engine frequently and involves fresh showers every day the 35 or 40E may not be the best answer - it pays to know what your needs are first.

I like the 40E for its stainless (rather than plastic) pump body and much simplified design, but it is hard not to notice that the 35 always worked - it was the 40E that failed me. This may have been a fault from the original assembly, and anecdotal evidence from a single installation is not statistically significant, but that has been my experience.

I'm off to check out the web site.
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Old 24-03-2011, 07:13   #50
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

[QUOTE= it pays to know what your needs are first.

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Old 24-03-2011, 12:27   #51
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

gwells:

Good question. My memory is getting foggy for that far back, but here is what I can recall.

First, the story about the "mil spec" alloy being inferior came from the Recovery Engineering product manager back in the late 1990s. Although the problem itself was real, I'm not 100% convinced that it was in fact due to a faulty military spec. The story also sounds a lot like what a company might say to cover their a#@%. But that's a moot point.

The problem was fixed by Recovery Engineering sometime in the 1990s, but I don't know exactly when. We bought our first 35 in 1995 and, after the first year of service, I had to repair a broken poppet valve spring. After servicing hundreds of those watermakers during the succeeding 14 years, I found relatively few with the faulty spring problem. If the units you are interested in buying were manufactured in 1993, my "best guess" is that there is a better than even chance that they have the old springs. To be on the safe side, you'd probably be better off buying later units, if your budget allows.

On the other hand, the poppet valve springs are quite easy to replace, and they are included in the seal kits for the model 35. If you are looking at having to pay hundreds more dollars for more recent units, you'd be better off buying a seal kit for each older one and replacing the springs yourself. You should have at least one seal kit on hand in any case, right? I don't know what a seal kit is selling for nowadays, but they may be close to $100 (outrageous price for a few cents worth of o-rings and seals, but that's how corporations make their money). Still, it's likely to be cheaper than buying a brand new unit. Replacing the springs and doing a seal kit job are skills you should learn in any case. There are illustrated and quite detailed instructions on how to do that in the book I wrote, which is available for free on my website.

One caveat: I don't know what the situation is with the units you are thinking of buying that were made in 1993. If they were made that long ago, I would recommend replacing the seals anyway, as they tend to lose their resiliency after long periods of non-use. If they have been reconditioned recently, then perhaps there is no such problem. Same goes for the membrane, although I've been truly amazed at how long membranes can last if they've been on the shelf (unused), or have been properly used and biocided when needed.
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Old 24-03-2011, 12:51   #52
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Wink Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

carinaPDX:

Excellent comments. I especially like the way you rigged your 35 for use when abandoning boat.

FYI, the furor in the later 90s about "problems" with Recovery Engineering watermakers was largely created by a single fellow who hung out at the "yacht club" in La Paz. For reasons unknown to me, he got a bee in his bonnet and decided to do everything he could to badmouth PUR. He even called the president of the company and told him he was going to "ruin him!" He was not a cruiser, but he "spread the word." His most infamous effort was a "survey" he claimed to have conducted, in which he discovered that a large number of people who had problems with their watermakers owned PUR watermakers. Sounded bad on the surface, until you realized that at that time, PUR was almost the only kid on the block, and almost anybody who had a small boat watermaker had a PUR! At any rate, he got some press in the SSCA newsletter and Latitude 38 and created quite a stir. To be honest, I really owe him thanks. If it wasn't for his virulent attack on PUR, Recovery Engineering wouldn't have been interested in having me investigate and help people with problems in Mexico.

BTW, the first model 40Es suffered from several design problems, which I've documented on my website. If you purchased one of the upgrade "deals," you surely got an early one, as that deal was only offered for a couple of years. Katadyn has long since corrected those design problems, and I no longer have any reservations about recommending the 40E. With that said, however, I want to emphasize that the 35 was designed for the military and has certainly stood the test of time. The main problem with its ABS plastic body parts is that users tend to overtighten the fasteners when working on them. I caution against that in my book. The 35 has a long history of good service, and still going.

Finally, in my opinion, the best, most durable, and most reliable of all the models is the 80E. Solid stainless pump body, simple construction, and very little to go wrong.

Thanks for the accurate comments; obviously based on real life experience.
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Old 24-03-2011, 15:48   #53
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

Ishipaco-

Thanks for the comments.

The info on the source of the bad press in Baja was good; it matches my more general experiences. Most cruisers are great people but there are a few that feel no reluctance to trash the reputations of suppliers, or who seem to enjoy yanking them around just for amusement (or profit). Such actions are hurtful, both emotionally and financially, and really drive me crazy. Far better to be generous with praise and slow to criticize. Of course it pays to talk with other cruisers about suppliers, but I find personal contact with those who have direct experience to be the most useful, and published rants very suspect.

BTW a point that I was trying to make but didn't was that I feel the membranes are a lot more durable than most people think - provided they are cared for properly. I think at least part of the reason my membrane survived being stored for 4 years without a biocide is that I only operated it in open water so there was little bacteria present to cause problems (and the fresh water flush would have been hostile to some bacteria). Your experiences of use in harbors is pretty impressive. But I suppose it is always worth noting that these systems were installed in Army HumVees for providing potable water from all sorts of dubious sources, not including pristine open ocean seawater.

One of the things that doesn't get highlighted often is how the need to use, flush, or biocide affects usage patterns (your book does go into this, to your credit). By using the unit frequently pickling is avoided - which conserves product water as well as biocide. For a 40E it requires about 20 minutes of run time to produce the 2 quarts of water needed for pickling. OTOH the original PUR manual called for running a gallon of fresh product water (~40 minutes run time) through the membrane before shutting down each time. Apparently that is not required as long as the unit is used often (but I didn't know that) - clearly the longer time between use the more desirable to flush, or better, pickle. For my application I ran the 40E for about 45 minutes (5 minutes to get fresh water, 40 minutes to make flushing water) before producing water for the tank. This argues for fewer, longer runs. But the need to protect the membrane argues for running at least every 3-4 days in the tropics to avoid pickling (in fact, with a fresh flush every use, a week would seem to me to be adequate). And if the system is being powered by solar power it will be easier on the batteries to run more frequently (and of course be less reliant on tank capacity). In practice I would run the system every 2-4 days with a fresh flush after, and always pickled it if I wasn't using it for a week. I generally relied on tankage for brief stops, or shore supplies for longer stays, and never operated in harbor (so if I was stopping for a while, I pickled before entering harbor). These clearly are cautious standards. If I go out again I would probably not bother with the fresh flush every use but would then operate it every 2 days; otherwise I would flush (for a few days) or pickle (for more than a week). As you have noted, this thinking plays into the choice of RO units: a unit that is run every few days (for the benefit of the membrane) doesn't need to have a high capacity. And a high capacity unit still has to be run every few days to avoid pickling. The competitors don't seem to be enthusiastic about explaining this...

A final note for those contemplating cruising and are put off by the details: any critical system on a boat, not just ROs, will need to be understood to the level of this discussion. Just buying, mounting, and expecting everything to work right just doesn't cut it. There will usually be cruisers willing to help out if need be, but ultimately a thorough understanding of the systems on a boat is a prerequisite for trauma-free cruising. An unwillingness to learn and roll up the sleeves and get dirty is a common cause of newbies giving up and going home. My 2...
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Old 24-03-2011, 16:03   #54
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

Ishipaco

thankyou for answer.

that makes total sense. yes I do need to learn how to properly maintain these units. Your website and book are first rate. fantastic resource.
I very much appreciate your knowledge, expertise and experience.
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Old 24-03-2011, 16:48   #55
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

An edit to my last post: Although it only takes 20 minutes for a 40E to produce the 2 quarts needed for biocide, it takes another 20 minutes to flush out the biocide before the next use for a total of 40 minutes - the same time it takes to produce the 1 gallon for a fresh flush, so there is little difference between the two except for the biocide consumed and the duration of effect.
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Old 21-04-2011, 20:51   #56
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

My few year old PS35 started to act strangely last week. After working for few hours and producing ~140ppm water at near 1.4gph it just stop making any water while pumping water through at near normal rate. No leaks. But relief valve which used to stick out 1/4 inch, doesnt move at all. Took apart everything seems normal. Any suggestions ?
Also i have mil surplus S35 off ebay which works great after cleaning. Can I replace manifold on PS35 with it ?
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Old 21-04-2011, 22:18   #57
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

sailnw777:

The fact that the pressure relief valve stem no longer pops out indicates that the watermaker is not developing pressure internally. That's why you're not getting product water. You need to isolate the cause of the problem.

My first test was almost always to try running the watermaker with two hoses (intake and reject) going directly into a bucket of clean seawater, thus bypassing the entire intake/reject system. This isolates the problem to either the intake plumbing or the pump itself. It will also eliminate (or indicate) the possibility of air ingress somewhere in the intake system. A small amount of air leaking in can cause the symptoms you describe.

If the problem persists, the possible causes in the pump body parts (excluding the manifold) include:

1.) Broken poppet valve spring. Did you check the spring that lives under the discharge poppet valve seat in the pump front body? See p. 45 of my watermaker book (on my website) for an illustration of these parts. You would need to remove the seat to examine the spring. First, try pushing the poppet valve up and down to see if it seems to move normally (i.e., with some "springiness").

2.) Cracked front or back pump body. This usually causes significant leakage around the pump body, but not always. Unfortunately, this kind of failure is usually impossible to spot by disassembling the pump, as the crack only opens up under pressure while the pump is running.

Pressure regulation actually takes place in the manifold. The manifold from a Survivor 35 should be almost identical to the one on your PowerSurvivor 35. The main difference is likely to be the hose barbs where the intake and reject hoses are attached. Many of the older manual units used a size smaller hose (and, therefore, barbs) than the PowerSurvivor.

Certainly try swapping the manifolds and then testing both units. That should quickly isolate the problem to either the pump body or the manifold.

If the problem goes with the manifold, there could be several causes:

1.) One of the six small manifold o-rings that live between the manifold and the pump body could have failed although, again, that typically causes a significant leak of seawater.

2.) There's a small o-ring inside the pressure relief valve assembly that could have failed. This would cause significant seawater leakage from the relief valve. Since the relief valve is factory-adjusted using a special testing jig, it requires repair at the factory or Katadyn North America (KNA).

3.) The shuttle valve that lives under the long "hump" on the manifold could have failed, although that is rather rare. That valve is the major patented component, and is responsible for the pressure regulating hydraulic circuits. Unfortunately, it also would require factory or KNA attention.

If you determine that the problem is the manifold and can't find a simple fix, I suggest you contact Chris Voxland at KNA (chris.v(at)katadyn(dot)com) for further advice. The last I heard, the manifold was a very expensive part to replace (~$500!) and it would probably be cheaper to send the unit (sans motor/drive assy) back to KNA for repair. Chris will be able to give you good advice in that case.

One last tip: in troubleshooting, you should be able to swap out most of the major parts between the Survivor 35 and the PowerSurvivor 35; e.g., the membrane and housing, manifold and pump front body. The only exception is the pump back body. If you disassemble the Survivor 35, you'll see that the coupling pin at the outside end of the piston shaft is press-fitted into the shaft, and can't be removed without a hydraulic press. This means that (1) the piston head, shaft & coupling pin can not be easily removed from the pump back body and, therefore, (2) the PowerSurvivor drive unit can't be coupled to the piston shaft in the Survivor pump back body.

Hope these tips help. I'd be pleased to hear what you find and how you finally resolve this problem.

--Gary Albers
Shell Beach CA
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Old 22-04-2011, 22:36   #58
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker Help from an Ex-Cruiser

Gary,

Thank you very much for such detailed analysis and advice. I will definitely report here once I am back to the Rio this summer and try to perform steps you outlined. Looks like I will have to try manifold from the survivor since i did pull out both relief valve and the patented valve which probably ruined both.
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Old 23-04-2011, 16:37   #59
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sailnw77:

Do you mean "Rio" as in "Rio Dulce, Guatemala?" We spent two different hurricane seasons there a few years ago, for a total of about one year's time, hanging out at Mario's Marina (and going to Bruno's for decent internet service--hi hi!).

O.K., since you've already messed with the shuttle valve and the relief valve, I'll add a couple of comments:

First, the relief valve: As you probably noticed, the screwed-on "cap" part that covers the valve stem and has the hex-nut type base to it, is the adjustment for setting the relief pressure; the farther it's screwed onto the manifold, the more it compresses the spring inside and increases the relief pressure setting. To adjust it accurately, the factory repair people use a special jig that allows them to adjust it to relieve at about 1000 psi. After adjustment, they normally melt the cap and manifold body together at one point, to maintain the adjustment and to (hopefully) prevent users from messing with it. They also attach a "Do not adjust!" sticker nearby!

When you reassemble the relief valve, carefully examine the melted point. Screw the cap back on so that it perfectly matches the original melt point. One tightening turn too few, and there will be a noticeable gap between the two parts of the melt point where they were broken. One turn too many, and the two melt point parts will jam and destroy each other. This technique should allow you to come reasonably close to the original pressure relief setting.
========================
NOTE: In my opinion, the design of this pressure relief valve is perhaps the weakest part of the model 35. If you have the parts removed, take a close look at the actual valve stem. Opposite to the white plastic end you can normally see, the valve is actually a small diameter, hollow, stainless steel tube. Not far from the plastic head, a transverse groove is cut about halfway through that tube. As pressure develops inside the pump, it acts on the tube and tends to push it out from the manifold. This outward travel is opposed by the spring, whose resistance is adjusted by how far the retaining cap is screwed on. The tube is sealed from the outside world by a very small o-ring. The idea is that, if enough pressure develops, the tube will travel far enough so that the transverse cut is pushed beyond the o-ring. At that point, water under pressure will be able to travel up the bore of the tube and out through the transverse cut, thus spewing into the outside world and relieving the pressure.

The problem I see is, if the watermaker begins relieving under high pressure, that transverse cut will travel back and forth across the o-ring each cycle. It seems to me that it would act much like a potato peeler cutting across that o-ring and have a good chance of destroying the o-ring in a short time. Of course, under normal operating conditions, the cut in the tubing shouldn't be reaching the o-ring at all, so there wouldn't be a problem. But, again, I don't think it would take many cycles of over-pressure relieving to seriously damage that o-ring, thus requiring factory repair. Just a thought.
========================
Re the shuttle valve: I never advise owners to mess with this valve, as doing so will almost certainly void any warranty still remaining. That's not likely to be a problem in your case. Secondly, there are no replacement seals for it available from Katadyn and, even if there were, a special tool, similar to a ring compressor, is required to install the valve with new seals on it.

But, if you've already taken it out, examine those seals carefully with a magnifying glass, to detect any serious damage. For some reason, damage to these seals is rare (in my experience) and, if it does occur, is usually caused by pitting inside the bore that the valve slides back and forth in. In either case, factory attention is indicated.

If the seals look O.K., you can try to carefully re-insert the valve into its bore. Grease it thoroughly with silicon grease and try sliding it straight back in the way it came out. If you're lucky, it will go in again without being damaged. The main problem is the kind of material the seals are made of. If you stretch them at all while examining them, they tend not to resume their original shape; i.e., they're not resilient like ordinary o-rings. In that case, you may find it impossible to reinstall them.

Good luck, and keep us advised. These are the kind of issues that other owners can learn from.

Gary Albers
Shell Beach CA
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Old 19-06-2011, 13:30   #60
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Re: PUR / Katadyn Watermaker - pressurized intake?

Hi.

[Sorry for your loss, impressed by your dedication]

I am installing a 40E. For the first year at least, the unit will be located in the galley so we can monitor how things are going.

What are your thoughts on connecting the 40E intake at the salt water pump that is feeding the galley?

I tested it today. First, it helped locating a leak in the pre filter unit (somehow I got the impression that I was shipped an open box item -- the pre filter had two connectors already installed, permatexed, but they were not tightened properly (freely rotating in the lid...)) Second, pressurized intake appears to increase the output of the 40E.

It looks like the addition of a compression tank in order to prevent the incessant start/stop of the galley pump (Par-Max 2.9) would make things run quite efficiently.
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