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Old 16-12-2010, 19:19   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishipaco View Post
I really don't know anything about military units being available as surplus. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be a fine source.
Thanks. I guess one question in my mind was since these all seem to be about ten years old if there were any design changes or problems with older units.


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Originally Posted by ishipaco View Post
No one seems to really know how long the shelf life is for a new membrane. The company recommends that units stored should be biocided annually. I know of many units that have had perfectly good membranes a number of years after being properly biocided. As long as the membrane surfaces remain wetted and there is no bacterial growth, I know of no reason a membrane wouldn't stay good indefinitely. This is just my opinion, however, based totally on my observations over the years.
Very helpful. While I understand the theory and even a bit of the production of membranes have no experience or knowledge about the care and feeding of one in the real world.

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Originally Posted by ishipaco View Post
The 40E is already designed to be hand-operated, should the need arise. It ships with a handle you can attach. On the other hand, I don't think trying that with a model 80E would work. You would have to pump it too fast, in order to keep water flow up to rated speed through the membrane and thereby produce quality product water.

Hope this helps.
Well, in my obviously cursory inspection of the information on the Katadyn website I had not noticed the manual backup for the 40E.

So yes, this helps a lot and I think it cements my plan to go with a 40E when it comes time for me to once again head out. Just have to rig it so it can be quickly snatched out and tossed into the ditch bag if that need arises.

Thanks again.

Skip
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Old 16-12-2010, 20:00   #17
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Some anecdotal info

Skipmac:

Think carefully about how to rig your watermaker installation to also have it quickly deployable in an abandon ship scenario. I once had a fellow ask me at a seminar about how "strong" the membrane housing was made. Curious, I asked him why he wanted to know that. He replied, "because I want to mount it less strongly so, if needed, I can simply grab it by the membrane housing tube and rip it out to throw in a liferaft!"

I then asked him: "O.K., will you have an easy method for disconnecting the hoses? Will you have hose lengths long enough to enable its use in a life raft? Will you have the handle and a set of tools for removing the drive unit and connecting the handle to it?"

Bottom line, after giving this much thought, in an abandon ship emergency, you're not likely to have either the time or the opportunity to successfully remove your regular watermaker to take with you. My advice: if you have time to do all that, spend that time saving the boat!

I know the idea of taking your watermaker with you in such a serious situation is tempting, but it's not very practical. I strongly recommend having a separate small hand-operated watermaker as a permanent part of your abandon ship gear. That's what the Katadyn model 06 and model 35 are for. The ability to manually attach a handle and operate the 40E by hand was intended to address a situation in which the ship's onboard electric power system fails.

Several times over the years, I've found myself in situations where abandoning ship seemed a real possibility. In those cases, things were so wild and hectic that I would hate to think about having to remove an installed watermaker along with other essential equipment and supplies. Think this one over carefully.

RE: the model 35: The 35 was developed for, and used by, the military over two decades ago. To my knowledge, there have been no major changes during that time. The only thing I can think of offhand was a change in the type of seal used to seal the end of the membrane. Both the old and new type of seal work O.K.. The new design is much less subject to improper installation on the part of the owner.

I personally used a model 35 for fifteen years. If used and maintained properly (see my Watermaker Book on my website), it is a very reliable piece of equipment. It has been criticised in the past because the pump body is constructed of ABS plastic. The pump body parts are held together with massive 5/16" SS bolts. Many owners tend to overtighten those fasteners and thereby stress the plastic body parts, often causing failure. A little caution is all that is needed to avoid this problem.

Believe it or not, I actually like the model 35 better than the 40E. The 40E was created to replace the 35, not because it represented any major improvement over the 35, but because the product manager at the time felt the company needed a "new product." In fact, the early 40E units produced by Recovery Engineering had a number of flaws, as is common in any newly designed product. To their credit, Katadyn corrected those problems after acquiring the company, and Katadyn versions of the 40E have evolved into a pretty reliable device.
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Old 16-12-2010, 20:47   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishipaco View Post
Skipmac:

Think carefully about how to rig your watermaker installation to also have it quickly deployable in an abandon ship scenario. I once had a fellow ask me at a seminar about how "strong" the membrane housing was made. Curious, I asked him why he wanted to know that. He replied, "because I want to mount it less strongly so, if needed, I can simply grab it by the membrane housing tube and rip it out to throw in a liferaft!"
Well I was thinking generally along those lines but something slightly more sophisticated than "rip it out"

More like bolt the unit onto a base with lever action clamps that hold the base to the floor or bulkhead. Use quick release fittings like swageloks on the water lines (leaving enough hose on the unit to operate) and a plug in the 12V lines. Of course the tools, handle, etc for manual operation would be in the ditch bag. If I am not missing something really obvious I would think that the disconnect, rigged properly, could be done in 30 seconds or less.

However, having never even seen one of these in the flesh, forget even using one, this may be a totally silly idea. Just have to think about this for two reasons. Spend less money and have more than one potential use for all gear on the boat, if possible.


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I know the idea of taking your watermaker with you in such a serious situation is tempting
Absolutely. I guess I have just read too many books; Steve Callahan, the Baileys, etc. Makes me thirsty just thinking about it.


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Originally Posted by ishipaco View Post
I strongly recommend having a separate small hand-operated watermaker as a permanent part of your abandon ship gear. That's what the Katadyn model 06 and model 35 are for.
Yeah, yeah, I agree, again.

I'll just run out to the money tree and pluck off a few more C notes and send them off to the local boat store. Then glass another 3-4 feet on the stern for a locker to hold the seemingly endless array of stuff that I think I need to go cruising. I think it was easier thirty years ago when I went with not much more gear than a VHF and a dinghy and probably less caution than was prudent.

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Originally Posted by ishipaco View Post
Believe it or not, I actually like the model 35 better than the 40E. The 40E was created to replace the 35, not because it represented any major improvement over the 35, but because the product manager at the time felt the company needed a "new product." In fact, the early 40E units produced by Recovery Engineering had a number of flaws, as is common in any newly designed product. To their credit, Katadyn corrected those problems after acquiring the company, and Katadyn versions of the 40E have evolved into a pretty reliable device.
Several of the military surplus 35s I found listed said they were produced by Recovery Engineering. I wondered about that and now I know.

Ok, at this point I'm thinking maybe I should go read the book and 90% of what I'm asking will have already been answered and you will be rid of an endless list of annoying questions.

Regards
Skip
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Old 16-12-2010, 21:17   #19
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Good luck

Skipmac;

I understand your motivations, especially when it comes to money. My main caution is to think out your plan carefully. I'm not saying it can't be done. It sounds like you're going at it thoughtfully. If you devise a clever way to mount the watermaker so it can be quickly retrieved, I encourage you to post it here, as many others have had similar ideas.

BTW, as concerns money: I can't tell you how many people we've met who professed extreme envy of our cruising lifestyle. "Oh, how I'd love to do that," they usually say, "but I can't afford it!"

When we left to go cruising in 1995, I only had about $10K in savings. Fifteen years later, I had twice that amount! Of course, we had our boat paid for, carried liability-only insurance, and lived pretty frugally. It certainly helped when the Katadyn people (then Recovery Engineering) started paying me a monthly stipend to help out other cruisers and give seminars. It wasn't a lot of income, but was nonetheless an important financial aid which allowed us to keep going for so many years.

I think most people who profess to want to go cruising fail to do so for more subtle reasons: e.g., (1) not wanting to leave family and grandchildren behind and (2) fear of the unknown. After all, it IS an ADVENTURE of the first magnitude, eh?
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Old 17-12-2010, 00:32   #20
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I always enjoy reading your posts ishipaco. I've been following yours and skipmacs conversation. I have recommended 40Es to people many times before in similar instances. I understand the fears generated from stories as skipmac mentions, Steve Callahan etc. I usually add that I hope folks that are very cost aware also make room in their budget for an EPIRB. I have found several times in the past they have not.
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Old 17-12-2010, 03:43   #21
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Originally Posted by ishipaco View Post
Hola Gringo41:

You didn't mention what device you need new motor brushes for, but I'll assume it was a 40E watermaker. Here's what I can tell you.

The motor and drive assembly has rarely caused any problems. I usually recommend checking the motor brushes after 5000 hours of use! Over the history of both the PUR and Katadyn versions of the 40E, several different motors have been used. Some have external caps for brush inspection, while others have internal brushes, which necessitate partial disassembly of the motor.

During all of our years cruising, I was impressed with how common (and how good) electric motor service shops were in the third world. I think some of those guys, if they had to, could fabricate new brushes out of old hard pencil leads glued together with superglue (hi hi).

If your motor has brush caps, I suggest you simply remove the old brushes and take them to a local electric motor shop. Check on your local VHF net to see if you can get a recommendation on where to go from a cruiser with good local knowledge. With the actual brushes to inspect, I'm reasonably certain a local shop can meet your needs.

If your brushes are not accessible externally, and you don't feel competent to disassemble the motor to get at them, I suggest you take the motor itself into the shop and let them do the dirty work. Again, I suspect they will be able to help you. Unlike the U.S., the cost of replacing motor brushes should be reasonable.

If you take your motor to a shop and the brushes have indeed worn badly enough to require replacement, it would be a good idea to have the shop also clean and check the commutator for carbon dust and wear.

I would be interested in knowing if (1) you need brushes for a watermaker and (2) how have you determined that you need new brushes? As I mentioned, the motor brushes, in my experience, have very long lives. In fact, I've never once had to replace brushes on a unit, or advise an owner to do do.

Good luck.
Hi Ishipaco
Thanks for your info and help. My watermaker is a PUR 80 II 24V and has external brush caps so it was very easy to take them out there was a lot of dust inside which I cleaned out with a vacuum cleaner. I was busy making up a pair of brushes using 2 starter moter brushes when I received a email that I can get a new set in Martinique our next destination. The old brushes are worn down to 5mm in length and every time I wanted to use the water maker I had to tap the motor at the brush end and it would start I leave the messy work and fit new ones in Martinique.
Best regards
gringo41
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Old 17-12-2010, 06:57   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishipaco View Post
Skipmac;

I understand your motivations, especially when it comes to money. My main caution is to think out your plan carefully. I'm not saying it can't be done. It sounds like you're going at it thoughtfully. If you devise a clever way to mount the watermaker so it can be quickly retrieved, I encourage you to post it here, as many others have had similar ideas.
Seriously I do agree that having a portable unit in the ditch kit is the best option and will probably go that way and see if I can rig up the 40E as a secondary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ishipaco View Post
Skipmac;
BTW, as concerns money: I can't tell you how many people we've met who professed extreme envy of our cruising lifestyle. "Oh, how I'd love to do that," they usually say, "but I can't afford it!"
First time I went cruising it was on a borrowed boat (long story) and a budget of $0-$200/month. There were times when I was so broke I couldn't afford the fuel to run the engine to charge the batteries so went to bed every night as soon as it got dark. Rowed or walked everywhere I went. But I had a ball and spent two years cruising the Bahamas and Caribbean and didn't care if I was broke.

Then got married and procreated and wife wanted to raise the kid in a house so back to land for thirty years. Moved back onto land pretty much in the red and worked our way up to modest savings, a paid for house and boat. Not a big fancy house or boat but 20 years DIY has the house in shape and a year or two to overhaul the boat and I'll be ready to go. Won't be first class and will anchor most of the time but I like that better anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ishipaco View Post
I think most people who profess to want to go cruising fail to do so for more subtle reasons: e.g., (1) not wanting to leave family and grandchildren behind and (2) fear of the unknown. After all, it IS an ADVENTURE of the first magnitude, eh?
Well, (1) Daughter has not yet come through with the grandkid(s) so not a holdup there (yet). In her defense med school and 4 years of residency has kept her just a little tied up. And (2) yea ADVENTURE! Here I come.
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Old 23-12-2010, 11:07   #23
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Plumbing into a two tank system

I'm about to start installing a Katadyn Power Survivor 40E.

The manual seems to discourage plumbing the watermaker directly into the tanks even for a two tank system (with a five gallon reserve).

Are they being too cautious: if we carefully check the water is running pure before we start filling one of the tanks is that reasonably prudent for ocean sailing?

Obviously there is some risk we will find the water at the end of the run is impure - but how remote is that?

John
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Old 26-12-2010, 16:56   #24
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what about a brand new never used Katadyn water maker.... is it ok to let it sit unused? Is the membrane prepped from the factory to be good for storage?
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Old 26-12-2010, 17:10   #25
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I have the Katydyn 40E,and have decided the money would have been better spent on bigger tanks and maybe the portable survivor model.The output of the thing is completely absurd.If I had a bigger engine I would get an engine driven watermaker,which makes 20 gallons per hour!WAWOM!
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Old 31-12-2010, 10:27   #26
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Output

Wish I'd seen this before I got mine.

How much are you getting ?

John
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Old 31-12-2010, 10:49   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jitait View Post
I'm about to start installing a Katadyn Power Survivor 40E.

The manual seems to discourage plumbing the watermaker directly into the tanks even for a two tank system (with a five gallon reserve).

Are they being too cautious: if we carefully check the water is running pure before we start filling one of the tanks is that reasonably prudent for ocean sailing?

Obviously there is some risk we will find the water at the end of the run is impure - but how remote is that?

John
Although Gary recommends that even the manual product water three-way valve not be used to direct water to the main tank after it tests good following a startup, that is exactly what we did for ten years.

I do understand his concerns; but felt that our use of the (Pur PS35) watermaker was mainly a convenience, being fairly close to shore water (Bahamas) should we need it.

Was he being too cautious? I'd think it depends upon your circumstances.

http://www.katadyn.ishipaco.com/docs/WatermakerBook.PDF
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Old 31-12-2010, 11:28   #28
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Wish I'd seen this before I got mine.

How much are you getting ?

John
John, if you do some maths, the 40, 80 and 160 all use about the same amount of amp hours to produce a given volume of water. The only thing that changes is the time it takes.

I think the manual says 5.7 lph for the 40e. If its mounted somewhere the sound won't annoy, it could just be left running for a complete night without worry.

If I wasn't just about to replace all the standing rigging, I would be interested.

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Old 02-01-2011, 03:18   #29
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Plumbing Direct to Watertank

Quote:
Although Gary recommends that even the manual product water three-way valve not be used to direct water to the main tank after it tests good following a startup, that is exactly what we did for ten years.
Thanks Gordmay, very useful.

J
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:59   #30
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We have found the Power Survivor to be a very reliable watermaker. Ours is 22 years old, and still works fine on the original membrane!

We have replaced the seals several times, but it is a reasonable job for anyone who "should" be cruising. (Takes a few hours.)

Long before the seals HAVE to be replaced, the unit will drip occasionally. This is normal. It can drip into the bilge, or if you have a dry bilge like we do, a pan underneath to catch drips works fine. (Where it will just evaporate).

The 40-E is large enough, as they like to be run a bit every day, and will last decades this way.

With the "silt reduction kit" which is ultra fine pre filtration, assisted with a booster pump, you can use it even in water that is not clear at all... as long as it is not a nasty harbor covered with petroleum products. This does create additional filter maintenance.

We have several tanks, and use the watermaker to top off only yesterday's consumption. (3 to 4 gallons for us) This is 2 or 3 hours of running each morning... which we power 100% with our solar panels.

Using the threeway valve to go straight into a small tank is fine. (Small like a 9 gallon). You taste tested the water, that has been dripping in the sink for thirty minutes, BEFORE you switch to the tanks, so it is highly unlikely for the "product water" to then suddenly turn to salt.

If it DID suddenly turn to salt, it is no problem, because that tank is only a portion of your overall tankage, which is chlorinated and kept FULL. (emergency storage) Even the tank that just got "salt water topped off", would be only PARTLY contaminated, because you were just topping it off.

We have several small tanks, and with our plumbing manifold, we can choose which tank we fill with the watermaker, (after confirming purity). We also have a manifold with which to choose which tank to draw from.

Even crossing oceans, If one keeps an emergency supply of water full, you are fine if and when it craps out.

We don't have room to swing the emergency handle, and don't carry it. We carry numerous small jugs of emergency water instead. (our unsinkable Searunner IS our life raft)

The manual recommends RE-pickling the unit at least once a year, if it is to be purely in storage. This is probably a good idea, however we have stored ours (at room temperature) for as long as 7 years, while building a new boat. We relied on the original pickling (done before removal), to keep the membrane healthy, and it was fine when we reinstalled the 40-E, 7 years later. We would have complied with the "once a year" recommendation, but it is hard to do when it is out of the boat. I suppose the safest thing is to do it in your shop, with a 12V power supply, and portable water tanks, but we've gotten away with omitting this yearly chore.

On our weight sensitive Trimaran, it has saved FAR more weight than it's 35#s, in water tankage that we don't have to carry, and it has allowed us to spend far longer diving out on the reef in Belize, than our friends with HUGE amounts of tankage could.

By having backup emergency water, and not being reliant on the watermaker for survival, they are a great, safe, way to go cruising. Obviously, the more remote the area you go to, (water supply wise), the more emergency supply you need. (figuring a MINIMUM of say... 1 qt / day, per person)... to get to a water source.

Finally... Just before the sink's tap, our stored tank water goes through a Seagull filter. These are both bacteriastatic, AND remove the vast majority of the chlorine that we added to the water kept in long term storage. The water in the 9 gallon tank that we top off daily with the watermaker, is only stored for a couple of days, so we don't chlorinate it at all.

Having water tankage that is good tasting and in ample supply, is a great way to go. We highly recommend it.


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