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Old 20-04-2015, 10:07   #61
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

Being that 220 volts is twice 110 volts, it is more dangerous. 440 volts (industrial and commercial) is even more dangerous. The higher the voltage, the more likely it is to arc to your body. And the less likely that you will be able to let go or move away from it.

I installed and worked on sound systems in school buildings for many years. The speaker wires to the rooms were either 25 volt (that's the peak voltage at maximum power) or 70.7 volt. The 70.7 volt wiring was required to be in conduit, just like electrical wiring. The 25 volt wiring could be run exposed.
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Old 20-04-2015, 10:16   #62
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

380 tri phase here.
And on this I totally agree, 380 is regarded as very dangerous.


Thinking about it, something I never considered, considering 380 lethal, 220 fine and 110V more dangerous than 220V is illogical.


Thank you gentlemen, you have bust a myth, a popular belief, you name it.
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Old 20-04-2015, 13:21   #63
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

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Originally Posted by Claude_Marie View Post
The answer is no, they have not suffered the spate of accidents.

How can you explain this carelessness, otherwise ?

I can suggest an explanation why no accident happened in the past (I am far less optimistic for the future), when you asked a professional to run a gaz installation in old days, you dealt with craftmen who had left school at 14, and started in the plumbing trade as apprentice, the know how was passed on from the old experienced generation to the young one.
The overall level of education was low but the skills were high and COMMON SENSE was tought.
They could make simple arithmetic calculations mentally and get them right 100%.
The new generation uses spread sheets, push the wrong key, get a result 3 orders of magnitude wrong and cannot see it.
Old school craftmen took their time, figured out how to run their pipe between gaz cylinder to cooker in ONE lenght, avoiding excessive radius when bending, if they had to dismantle lockers, they would do so.
Routing of the pipe was done in the way that nothing could rag against them, fasteners were used wisely in just the right number (no overkill), some flexibility was allowed.
Extreme care was taken to keep gas cylinder locker ventilated, cylinder secured in a bullet proof mount, no stress on rubber hose possible.
Same at the other end, between pipe and cooker.
No rocket science, but a lot of thinking and the pride to do a perfect job.
Sounds silly doesn't it : Taking pride into one's job.
Design was simple :
Cylinder-rubber hose-copper pipe rubber hose- cooker.
no welding, no couplings in between.
No accidents.
There was also a knowledge about maintenance : A gas gasket coupling is specific under no circonstance a gasket for water pipe should be used.
Rubber hoses to replaced by new ones on a regular basis, some came with a "change before..." printed.
People knew (how, do not ask me ) that no excessive torque should be applied when tightening a new hose.
In doubt, soapy water and torque adjustments.

I have seen my dad tightening the coupling between cylinder and pressure regulator with his hands, no tool.
In these modern days of single mums with no man arround with muscular hands to screw at proper torque, you can buy a plastic spanner, quite strong, which you use when you change your cylinder.
Despite made of plastic it is strong and is designed in a way that it "jumps" from the bolt when the proper torque is reached.
So no excessive torque applied on the soft rubber gasket.
Using this spanner helps developping a muscle memory, so you end up knowing what torque is required for these gaskets.

So everything would be perfect, Hell no !
Modern (cough, cough) Education put on the market so called professionals without a single hint of common sense, the know how does not pass on from the old salts to the rookies.
It seems that they cannot used their hands anymore, cordless drill for everything, would not use a screw driver..."fuxing" threads does not cross their mind, adjustable spanners instead of the spanner for the right size, how can they figure out how much torque they apply ?
At the end of the day, more regulations for gas detectors, safety valves and so forth to overcome poor design and even poorer crafmanshift.
Are we any safer with all these bells and whistles....I am not even sure.
I wonder how our parents and grand parents survived in days when these electronic and safety gizzmo did not exist ?
Still accidents were rare.
Go figure....
I applaud your optimism, but my question was rhetorical. I am sure I could find a record of plenty of accidents, in fact, I just read about one a couple of days ago. But, I was not talking about either codes, or workmanship, but seamanship and correct safety procedure. And, I said that I had yet to meet a professional European charter crew that turned off the gas between meals. And, I live among European crews. The reason that procedures are in place are that things are not always installed or maintained correctly, and they do get old, wear out, or have wear, unintended, or otherwise. Or something unforeseen happens that needs to be guarded against. As an example, look at the Concorde.
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Old 20-04-2015, 14:18   #64
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

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I applaud your optimism, but my question was rhetorical. I am sure I could find a record of plenty of accidents, in fact, I just read about one a couple of days ago. But, I was not talking about either codes, or workmanship, but seamanship and correct safety procedure. And, I said that I had yet to meet a professional European charter crew that turned off the gas between meals. And, I live among European crews. The reason that procedures are in place are that things are not always installed or maintained correctly, and they do get old, wear out, or have wear, unintended, or otherwise. Or something unforeseen happens that needs to be guarded against. As an example, look at the Concorde.
Okay, want a practical answer :

Check with each supplier of various elements in your gas system for their MTBF (Mean time between faillure).

Once MTBF known replace accordingly it is called preventive maintenance.

Solid copper pipe : Off hand working pressure, you are looking at 27 mbars
Run a pressure proof with compressed air.

Much more professional than relying on human nature and goodwill.

Quoting you : " I have yet to find professional European crew that turn the gas off between meals".

a) I am not surprised
b) do not expect to find a such crew anytime soon.

Should it help :

Do not expect to enforce a procedure with people who :

- have never heard of a such procedure (gas off outside cooking hours)
or who :
at best find it stupid
at worse find it scary ( understand : If this C'ptain ask me to turn tap off, the gas system must be in a terrible state).

Finally, understand that " correct procedure" has no absolute value, it is extremely relative.
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Old 20-04-2015, 17:09   #65
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

Well, Claude, you miss the point, and, by the way, an MCA instructor will expect the same procedure that I outlined, even if their trainees may not follow it. And the MCA instructor will not find it stupid.
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Old 20-04-2015, 17:29   #66
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

A current of 10 milliamp is painful. A shock of 100 to 200 milliamp is fatal (heart ventricular fibrillation). A current of over 200 milliamps clamps the heart and is quite recoverable. There are many stories of linemen falling to the ground after a fatal shock and the force of the impact starting their heart again. Big shocks respond to CPR, also.
I remember working with a tech who would flip the back of his hand to an unknown voltage source and call out the voltage as 110 VAC or 220 VAC. He knew that the muscles would contract and jerk his hand away from the live voltage. He is still with us 50 years later!
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Old 20-04-2015, 17:31   #67
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

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Thanks, I struggle with unfamiliar acronyms.
And thanks also for indicating the exact ISO std.

I am left to find out how ISO 10239 translate into an EN std if it does.


Edit : 10239 would be (I am lost) BS-ISO-EN

ISO standards are EuroNorms


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Old 20-04-2015, 17:34   #68
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

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Originally Posted by Claude_Marie View Post
380 tri phase here.
And on this I totally agree, 380 is regarded as very dangerous.


Thinking about it, something I never considered, considering 380 lethal, 220 fine and 110V more dangerous than 220V is illogical.


Thank you gentlemen, you have bust a myth, a popular belief, you name it.

It never was a myth or a popular belief. You just had it wrong. That's all !!!

Dave


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Old 20-04-2015, 17:39   #69
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

I carry two fittings in my propane locker. One is a fitting that replaces the solenoid and the other is an adapter (from Defender) that allows me to use a little 16 oz. cylinder to feed the house. Both have been used several times.
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Old 20-04-2015, 17:43   #70
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

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I carry two fittings in my propane locker. One is a fitting that replaces the solenoid and the other is an adapter (from Defender) that allows me to use a little 16 oz. cylinder to feed the house. Both have been used several times.
You have had to replace the solenoid several times? That doesn't seem right.
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Old 20-04-2015, 18:00   #71
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

I haven't replaced the solenoid several times but I have used the fitting several times while on a trip or just waiting for the part to ship to me. I have used several little 16 oz. cylinders when I run out (I only have one big bottle) until I get to where I can buy gas. I have only replaced the solenoid one time in five years.
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Old 20-04-2015, 18:04   #72
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

Solenoid fitted to my boat ( did all the gas install myself ) is now 7 years old. Switched on and off after each use of the stove. Working fine


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Old 21-04-2015, 02:06   #73
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

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It never was a myth or a popular belief. You just had it wrong. That's all !!!

Dave


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Here we go again !!!

So you would know better than I do about myth, popular belief and old wives tales of continental Europe, than I do myself ???

Waaaoooh, I am ever so impressed.

Whilst I suppose it is completly a waste of time (you very likely know that already) for obvious reasons a number of people, who are today in the 70-80 and more age group and more were very reluctant to accept the idea of switching from 110V to 220V.
In order to help said people to accept the idea, the Electricity board (which was not private but state own, but of course you know that too) marketed the idea that 220V was safer.


Whether right or wrong, it was advertised that way.Period.

The good old trick : We (the govt) know best what is good for you, in this case a better security.

In some ways, it is true, you can drain more Watts with less Amps, small gauge cables dealt better with more powerful household equipements.
For a good deal of a given continental population (but could be the same in the UK), they were told that 220V was better AND safer, and of course look no further.
You are welcome to call it a state organized brain washing of a population, if you are reluctant to call it a myth.
As for every popular belief, it will disappear when the generation who remember of this switching (and some of their children like myself) will pass away.

That said, stick to your point, and keep saying that I am wrong, from the beginning, if you wish to.
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Old 21-04-2015, 03:20   #74
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

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Well, Claude, you miss the point, and, by the way, an MCA instructor will expect the same procedure that I outlined, even if their trainees may not follow it. And the MCA instructor will not find it stupid.
MCA = UK

Totally agree with you a British crew has no excuse for not complying with a UK regulation.

That said, I hope that we can agree upon the fact that the E.U is a nightmare when it comes to regulations.
UK regulations do not apply on the Continent.
And when I refer to "the continent", it is pure sheer nonsense with German regulations conflicting with neighbouring countries.

Same goes with Standards, BS can conflicts with NF or TÜV, solely for pure protectionism in disguise.



As for my point, may I ask should your house being connected to the British gas grid and should you rely on a gas boiler for heating and hot water, the good old "Glow worm", when you leave your house to go to work, do you turn the gas tap off ?
Better, do you turn the main tap next to your gas meter off ?
No you don't.
Your house would be freezing cold when you come back.

You just trust that it has been installed meeting strict standards and that it is perfectly maintained.

For C.U.L.T.U.R.A.L reasons a number of people just behave in the same way with gas cylinders whether in boats, RV, caravans, garden sheds...etc.

You are right to consider by MCA stds that this is not a "correct procedure", safe than MCA does not apply everywhere...


Edit : Talking about recreational vessels, not about commercial vessels and STCW 95.
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Old 21-04-2015, 03:44   #75
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Re: Propane Solenoid experiences , good/bad/best

The best propane safety system I have seen used a gas rated ball valve, a spring to close it and a bowden cable leading to the galley.
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