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Old 05-02-2018, 00:00   #16
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

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Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine View Post
Hi Sailredemption .

Presently we are in the middle of testing a MicroPlate setup and the insulation testing has been put aside for another week or so .
From what I have found so far and from the boxes I have built over the years I think you are going the right way with the blueboard backed up on the warm side with the polyiso . The next test will involve a much larger block with an Rvalue of 20 . If this test does not yield a larger gap in performance then I will continue to recommend this technique for box building .
I will post when the testing starts . Usually takes a week to get the results .

Regards John
That sounds like a good plan to us. We'll be waiting for the next round of tests.


Do you or Rich know of any paint coating you would use to coat the inside of the box before you put your vapor barrier and foam in? Something that would help prevent any thermal movement either way. Or prevent condensation.. Either way I'll be painting the inside at least to just seal the plywood. Just figured I'd ask the pros.
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Old 05-02-2018, 00:20   #17
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

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This is why we recommend to always seal the cut edges of polyiso with vapour barrier tape . Also any holes in the foil facing should be sealed up as well . This will stop the moisture from attacking your insulation .

Regards John
Terrific report John. Good down to earth testing and agree 100% with your continued emphasis on insulation vapour sealing. So many cabinets become very inefficient due to gradual moisture entrapped in the insulation, and us mugs (the refrigeration system manufacturers) cop the blame... sound familiar?

Cheers OzePete
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Old 05-02-2018, 05:34   #18
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

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Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
That sounds like a good plan to us. We'll be waiting for the next round of tests.


Do you or Rich know of any paint coating you would use to coat the inside of the box before you put your vapor barrier and foam in? Something that would help prevent any thermal movement either way. Or prevent condensation.. Either way I'll be painting the inside at least to just seal the plywood. Just figured I'd ask the pros.
What you want to avoid is VOCs . These are the solvents in the paint. They will attack your vapor barier and your insulation . Paints with high VOC content take a long time to totally cure and complete the of gassing process even if they feel hard and cured to the touch. That leaves us with waterborne paints but these are hard to find with a shiny/hard finish. These paints are what are use inside homes , have very low VOC content , you can barley smell them but the take a while to dry .

We have been using this with great success, you can get it in high gloss .
Product Catalog



Regards John
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Old 05-02-2018, 14:04   #19
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

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Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine View Post
What you want to avoid is VOCs . These are the solvents in the paint. They will attack your vapor barier and your insulation . Paints with high VOC content take a long time to totally cure and complete the of gassing process even if they feel hard and cured to the touch. That leaves us with waterborne paints but these are hard to find with a shiny/hard finish. These paints are what are use inside homes , have very low VOC content , you can barley smell them but the take a while to dry .

We have been using this with great success, you can get it in high gloss .
Product Catalog



Regards John
Hi John, due to our customer base being *sparse we don't build cabinets we only manufacture systems that are couriered out for installation by others (often the boat owner). *Aus is about the same size as the USA but about 15 times less people!. We do try to advise our clients when they are building or renovating a cabinet and like you we especially emphasise the need for adequate and well sealed insulation as the most important issue. We often say to customers 'sure you can get away with thinner insulation but you will need lots of batteries, and good insulation is much lighter and lasts longer!

Cheers, OzePete Ozefridge | 12 Volt Refrigeration Systems
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Old 05-02-2018, 17:36   #20
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

OzePete,

Maybe you could comment on how to use multipanel as the outside cabinet and inside liner?

Would we still need a vapour barrier if we use the multipanel material?

FWIW, the systems from OzeFridge have an awesome reputation with cruisers in this part of the world, so hat tip to you for producing such an effective system in harsh conditions👍


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Old 05-02-2018, 18:26   #21
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

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Originally Posted by OzePete View Post
Hi John, due to our customer base being *sparse we don't build cabinets we only manufacture systems that are couriered out for installation by others (often the boat owner). *Aus is about the same size as the USA but about 15 times less people!. We do try to advise our clients when they are building or renovating a cabinet and like you we especially emphasise the need for adequate and well sealed insulation as the most important issue. We often say to customers 'sure you can get away with thinner insulation but you will need lots of batteries, and good insulation is much lighter and lasts longer!



Cheers, OzePete Ozefridge | 12 Volt Refrigeration Systems


Hi Pete .

I have built plenty of boxes over the years and insulated them with just about everything on the market . It's a daunting task. It's well worth the effort . I like to share with fellow sailors what I have learned and hope my advice can be of help. Knowing there is someone they can ask makes the task seem much more doable .

Regards John
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Old 06-02-2018, 00:57   #22
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine View Post
What you want to avoid is VOCs . These are the solvents in the paint. They will attack your vapor barier and your insulation . Paints with high VOC content take a long time to totally cure and complete the of gassing process even if they feel hard and cured to the touch. That leaves us with waterborne paints but these are hard to find with a shiny/hard finish. These paints are what are use inside homes , have very low VOC content , you can barley smell them but the take a while to dry .

We have been using this with great success, you can get it in high gloss .
Product Catalog



Regards John
Thanks for the tips and the link. I honestly didn't know they made a hard shell water-based paint! Very cool!

I was initially thinking about epoxy coating as well instead of paint as that doesn't produce much voc and cures quickly. I'll have to see if any retailers near me sell or can order the Advance paint.
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Old 06-02-2018, 06:39   #23
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

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Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
Thanks for the tips and the link. I honestly didn't know they made a hard shell water-based paint! Very cool!

I was initially thinking about epoxy coating as well instead of paint as that doesn't produce much voc and cures quickly. I'll have to see if any retailers near me sell or can order the Advance paint.

You could have a look at this as well.

EPOXY: Buy Epoxy Resin Paints - Options 603.435.7199 Projects, repairs

I don't usually paint the inside of the cabinetry before I put the vapor barrier in . The outside of the vapor barrier does not get cold at all, at least it had better not. So there is no need to worry about condensation there, the wood stays very dry . All the issues are inside the insulation as you get closer to the cold side , this is were the condensation occurs and collects , this is why we use vapor barrier , to stop the moisture from entering the insulation.

Regards John
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Old 07-02-2018, 02:23   #24
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

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OzePete,

Maybe you could comment on how to use multipanel as the outside cabinet and inside liner?

Would we still need a vapour barrier if we use the multipanel material?

FWIW, the systems from OzeFridge have an awesome reputation with cruisers in this part of the world, so hat tip to you for producing such an effective system in harsh conditions��


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Hi BB, As i quoted earlier we don't get involved with fridge cabinet building but get asked a lot of questions because now everyone realise how important insulation and vapour sealing is. The 'Multi Panel' product from Tony (near Melbourne) is great construction material but with a density of 200Kg / cubic meter, it is considered too heavy for total insulation. It is mostly used as the inner and outer liner of a cabinet with the insulation within, much as John does with wood. MP can be supplied in various thickness and lined with a variety of materials on one side to form a vapour seal / wear surface. Often the cabinet inner and outer liners are formed with say 15mm thickness MP then temporarily framed/jigged to withstand outward pressure while two mix urethane is poured into the cavity. This is a tricky process and requires a bit of practice elsewhere before tackling the galley fridge!!

PS, thanks for the Ozefridge thumbs up! (The cheques in the mail!!!)


Cheers OzePete Ozefridge | 12 Volt Refrigeration Systems
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Old 07-02-2018, 05:17   #25
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

Hi Peter,

I think I will follow your suggestion of using the MP for the inner and outer skins of the cabinets, only with sheet urethane insulation in between, as we discussed some time ago.

And our cheque will be heading your way soon for the 2 x AW480 systems, not the other way around! 😀


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Old 22-02-2018, 15:05   #26
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

John,
Good information. We discussed this concept at the Annapolis show, in reference to my current refit. I'm sure you remember I was the 1001 guy in line that you had to repeat it too.

Anyway, My box is, like many, against the hull and thus sloped on one wall. I am finally getting to the point I can start this project and trying to form a plan.

The current box is a box in a box with pour in place foam and probably only 3 to 3-1/2" thick. I will have to work through the top opening and remove the inner liner in pieces. After which I will decide if I need to remove the outer liner.

So, finally, my question (s):

How much will I lose by putting the blue board in against the hull liner (with barrier) in sheets of 1/2" (8 layers) and laminating them to the shape with can spray foam as glue between the layers? Also, I will have to split the panels and over lap the seams to get the pieces in the top opening.

Is there another product that I'm not aware of that could be troweled into the shape 4" thick that will provide the R-factor we need? (long shot)

Thanks
Jim
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Old 22-02-2018, 16:04   #27
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

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John,
Good information. We discussed this concept at the Annapolis show, in reference to my current refit. I'm sure you remember I was the 1001 guy in line that you had to repeat it too.

Anyway, My box is, like many, against the hull and thus sloped on one wall. I am finally getting to the point I can start this project and trying to form a plan.

The current box is a box in a box with pour in place foam and probably only 3 to 3-1/2" thick. I will have to work through the top opening and remove the inner liner in pieces. After which I will decide if I need to remove the outer liner.

So, finally, my question (s):

How much will I lose by putting the blue board in against the hull liner (with barrier) in sheets of 1/2" (8 layers) and laminating them to the shape with can spray foam as glue between the layers? Also, I will have to split the panels and over lap the seams to get the pieces in the top opening.

Is there another product that I'm not aware of that could be troweled into the shape 4" thick that will provide the R-factor we need? (long shot)

Thanks
Jim
Hi Jim , I remember you

We love talking to everyone at the boat shows , it really is one of my favorite things to do. We will be there again this spring.

As for your question , are you going to square up the turn in the hull to match the vertical wall of your box , or are you going to carry the curved hull shape into your box. It can be done either way with the first way being easier. Either way , you won't want to use the spray foam stuff for glue , it is really messy! Once you get all your old insulation out you can use a 6mm poly plastic sheet to line the box . Use the blue tuck tape to seal it and hold it in place. This comes in red as well but it shoud say on it vapor barrier tape. Don't worry about folding the vapor barrier to get it to lay flat , folding is better then cutting it . For really strange shapes you can use a heat gun to warm it up and form it to the shape better if you want to get really fancy. Now as for the glue , use the tape! Tape each layer in as you build it up , it serves doble duty , gluing and sealing at the same time. If after each layer if you find any small gaps at the ends of the insulation board , thats where you put a little squirt of spary foam to fill that gap , then move on to the next layer.
Use the thickest insulation you can to save time , 4 layers goes faster then 8 , trim them as nice as you can to get that snug fit .

Are you going with all blue board (XPS) or in combination with Polyiso? Don't think there is anything that you could trowel in , unless you go with two part foam , now thats really messy.

I hope this helps.

Regards John
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Old 23-02-2018, 06:50   #28
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

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Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine View Post
Hi Jim , I remember you

We love talking to everyone at the boat shows , it really is one of my favorite things to do. We will be there again this spring.

As for your question , are you going to square up the turn in the hull to match the vertical wall of your box , or are you going to carry the curved hull shape into your box. It can be done either way with the first way being easier. Either way , you won't want to use the spray foam stuff for glue , it is really messy! Once you get all your old insulation out you can use a 6mm poly plastic sheet to line the box . Use the blue tuck tape to seal it and hold it in place. This comes in red as well but it shoud say on it vapor barrier tape. Don't worry about folding the vapor barrier to get it to lay flat , folding is better then cutting it . For really strange shapes you can use a heat gun to warm it up and form it to the shape better if you want to get really fancy. Now as for the glue , use the tape! Tape each layer in as you build it up , it serves doble duty , gluing and sealing at the same time. If after each layer if you find any small gaps at the ends of the insulation board , thats where you put a little squirt of spary foam to fill that gap , then move on to the next layer.
Use the thickest insulation you can to save time , 4 layers goes faster then 8 , trim them as nice as you can to get that snug fit .

Are you going with all blue board (XPS) or in combination with Polyiso? Don't think there is anything that you could trowel in , unless you go with two part foam , now thats really messy.

I hope this helps.

Regards John
I would lose too much space if I square off the hull area and the galley got a very nice stainless makeover in New Zealand during the previous owners circumnavigation. So I don't want to risk tearing that out.

My CURRENT plan is to cut out the inner liner and decide if removing the outer shell will net me more insulation space. But either way, having read the posts here, I was thinking of just using blue board. From what I gather, there is no real advantage to Polyiso over time and outgassing. If I have misunderstood the points of the posts, please correct me.

But now my memory has faded, tell me again why I don't just use pour in place or spray in place two part urethane foam? I have worked with it a lot and am aware of the difficulties and how messy It can be, but I also know how to form up and pour this material then shape and glass over and gelcoat. Was it R-factor? There are some very dense products available now.

I will be contacting you directly but feel others will benefit here.

thanks again,
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Old 23-02-2018, 07:10   #29
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

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Originally Posted by jhulmer View Post
I would lose too much space if I square off the hull area and the galley got a very nice stainless makeover in New Zealand during the previous owners circumnavigation. So I don't want to risk tearing that out.

My CURRENT plan is to cut out the inner liner and decide if removing the outer shell will net me more insulation space. But either way, having read the posts here, I was thinking of just using blue board. From what I gather, there is no real advantage to Polyiso over time and outgassing. If I have misunderstood the points of the posts, please correct me.

But now my memory has faded, tell me again why I don't just use pour in place or spray in place two part urethane foam? I have worked with it a lot and am aware of the difficulties and how messy It can be, but I also know how to form up and pour this material then shape and glass over and gelcoat. Was it R-factor? There are some very dense products available now.

I will be contacting you directly but feel others will benefit here.

thanks again,
My final opinion on the benefits of polyiso is still out, pending the completion of a 6 inch test.

As for two part pour or spray in place foam , go for it , I have built many boxes with it with very good results. If you are familiar with the product then it is a great solution , I usually don't recommend it because of the mess and expansion pressure it creates. It is R5 per inch with 2lb foam , maybe a bit more . You will still need that vapor barrier .

You could spry it on the turn of the hull wait till it cures and carve out the shape you need .

Send me a couple of photos of your box I'm losing you on this point ??

"""plan is to cut out the inner liner and decide if removing the outer shell""

As outer shell do you mean the cabinetry ?

Regards John.
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Old 23-02-2018, 07:32   #30
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Re: Polyiso VS Blueboad (XPS) Test

You will be glad to know we have been standardizing our plate design which will enable us to drop our prices on a pick ,click, and ship system by almost a third (sneak peak.. starting at $1995US). The condensing units are the same and the plates are identical , just built to a standard size and you choose how many plates you need .

We will still have the full custom design for those more challenge installs .

We will be showing this new system at the Annapolis Spring boat show and it will be available on our website at that time.


Regards John.
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