Massive bilge pump idea

[hellosailor]

Those capricious daydreamers in the USCG who sometimes use reindeer and other times use helicopters and C130's...they still airdrop 55 gallon drums containing a gasoline powered trash pump, some hose, and dangerously explosive gasoline to make it all work, right? Relying on a system that uses 110 VAC and requires energizing wires and equipment with 110 VAC while there is seawater coming into the boat, seems like a bigger risk. Ask any firefighter, AC has a clever way of finding water and snatching people from it. Just like 'gators do. It's a boat. Limited time, limited space, limited budget. So you do the best you can, or you spend the grand on insurance instead. Really, wasn't this all hashed out fifty years ago? Have there been any new options since then?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

. . . Now just 'cause you've got the big dog pump doesn't mean you get to try for rollovers. Getting knocked down in the English Channel seemed quite enough!

Indeed. Once was quite enough for me, let me tell you.

And it was the North Sea, not the Channel

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Those capricious daydreamers in the USCG who sometimes use reindeer and other times use helicopters and C130's...they still airdrop 55 gallon drums containing a gasoline powered trash pump, some hose, and dangerously explosive gasoline to make it all work, right? Relying on a system that uses 110 VAC and requires energizing wires and equipment with 110 VAC while there is seawater coming into the boat, seems like a bigger risk. Ask any firefighter, AC has a clever way of finding water and snatching people from it. Just like 'gators do. It's a boat. Limited time, limited space, limited budget. So you do the best you can, or you spend the grand on insurance instead. Really, wasn't this all hashed out fifty years ago? Have there been any new options since then?

Who said anything about 110 VAC? It's 230V!!


As has been discussed at some length -- there are tradeoffs to all of these choices, and the right choice for one might not be the right one for someone else.

AC power is widely used on ships and work boats, so no need to be paranoid about it. In my particular case, the risks connected with electrical power are a lot smaller than the risks and hassle which would be associated with keeping a gasoline/petrol powered pump stored and in reliable working condition. YMMV. The trash pump is submersible, with a waterproof cable which plugs into a waterproof socket on the top of my high mounted generator, after the whole AC electrical system has been disconnected from it.

[Time2Go]

I've read this whole thread for my own education, like I do
for lots of threads. So it's my understanding that most here are talking
about preventing the boat from sinking first then secondly marking it capable
of reaching any safe destination????
So thinking way outside the box here,
How about a inflatable device built in to something like a rub rail
or toe rail that when activated inflates like a giant MayWest that
adds sufficient buoyancy to keep the vessel afloat,
Perhaps awash but afloat.
Think Apolo space capsule?
Cheers
Neil

[a64pilot]

Make a giant RIB out of it
It could be done, but like everything you have to weigh cost against likelihood of need.
While I will prepare to some extent for implausible events, I won't go broke, or as you see all the time, never leave cause I do have everything I "need" to go.
I'll likely pop a couple of hundred for a trash pump, but I acknowledge that all battles are not winnable, and you need a back up plan to deal with losing the war.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Time2Go

I've read this whole thread for my own education, like I do
for lots of threads. So it's my understanding that most here are talking
about preventing the boat from sinking first then secondly marking it capable
of reaching any safe destination????
So thinking way outside the box here,
How about a inflatable device built in to something like a rub rail
or toe rail that when activated inflates like a giant MayWest that
adds sufficient buoyancy to keep the vessel afloat,
Perhaps awash but afloat.
Think Apolo space capsule?
Cheers
Neil

One company used to market airbags to keep INSIDE the hull volume, to prevent sinking. YachtSaver or something like that. Dashew wrote a whole chapter about it in one of his books.

I wouldn't bother with that, personally.

I think reducing the risk of flooding and sinking to reasonable levels is best accomplished, in a standard design boat, by:

1. Keeping your sea cocks, underwater piping, shaft seal, rudder seal, etc. in good condition, with regular inspections and replacements.

2. Know your sea cock and other underwater penetrations locations so well, that you can find them blindfolded and in seconds.

3. Keep well organized and always to hand materials for dealing with leaks, including fothering for hull breaches.

4. Good bilge alarms, so that you have early warning of a problem.

5. A few layers of pump capacity: (a) maintenance pump(s); (b) volume water pump(s); (c) crash pump(s). I don't mention manual pumps because personally I think they are nearly worthless. Powered pumps should be maintained and checked and should be proven reliable and powered from reliable power sources.


My next boat will incorporate other measures in the design to make flooding less likely:

1. Watertight compartments and doors (see the Noelex and Seaworthy Lass thread on their gorgeous Bestaever custom boat, for the right way to do this).

2. Extremely strong standpipes to radically reduce the number of hull penetrations.

3. Cofferdams around rudder seal and quadrant, and bow thruster (my present boat does have a cofferdam for the thruster).



THEN, you need to mitigate the risks which flow from sinking, in case all the above fails:

1. Regularly inspected and serviced liferaft(s) (I have TWO rafts on board; both serviced this year). Properly stored for reliable deployment.

2. Good grab bag.

3. Excellent, redundant, emergency communications (EPIRB, PLB(s), DSC handheld, AIS beacon, flares, mirror, DeLorme and/or Portable sat phone, etc., etc.)

4. Well thought-out abandon ship procedures, and maybe a checklist.

[Bleemus]

You forgot insurance premium being paid.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

You forgot insurance premium being paid.

Ha, ha.

Yes, excellent point!

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I think folks should take another look at the Fast Flow pump attached to the propeller shaft. Pumps astonishing amounts of water. No maintenance, no setup. Flooding situations are full of confusion and fear. It's not a good time to figure out how to start a gasoline engine that's been in a locker for two years.

And while diesel engines can fail they are damn reliable. Most boats' electric systems short out before the water rises to the sole. Most diesels will run underwater - until its air intake goes under.

Fast Flow Emergency Bilge Pump

And while on the subject, think about how to stop the leak. The old fashioned tapered plugs attached to the seacock aren't useful for most leaks as they need a perfectly round hole to work. Most leaks are cracks or splits.

Keep several tubs of this stuff:

That's pretty cool, the reservation I have is that all those video examples must be with minimal "head". You open a seacock that size he has there on a typical sailboat and the water stream is about 2 ft high with lots of force! Too bad they don't show the result that way, and one suspects there's a reason why..? Still, looks like handy stuff.

[leftbrainstuff]

ARC compliant? That's a bit like claiming the quality documentation was perfect but the thingamibob still fell off.

While I like the concept behind a damage control pump I prefer passive emergency options. Systems that only get used in emergencies invariably fail to work.

Ever tried using a tapered cone plug, or starting a damage control pump in an emergency? If it aint tested and proven in a real emergency its probably useless. In the dark, with a big sea, electrics out and when you are completely knackered.

We're building sea chests around our thru hulls and pss shaft seal. Normal bilge pumps will handle any weeping or leakage.

The sea chests also have a flange top and can be fitted with an extender to allow in water maintenance.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

. . . the USCG . . . still airdrop 55 gallon drums containing a gasoline powered trash pump, some hose, and dangerously explosive gasoline to make it all work, right? Relying on a system that uses 110 VAC and requires energizing wires and equipment with 110 VAC while there is seawater coming into the boat, seems like a bigger risk.

Good point about the risks of electrocution using an AC-powered trash pump with seawater flooding in! Then again there are other practical reasons why the USCG would opt to deliver gas-powered pumps in rescue scenarios.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The trash pump is submersible, with a waterproof cable which plugs into a waterproof socket on the top of my high mounted generator, after the whole AC electrical system has been disconnected from it.

They also all seem to have thermal protection, often with a built-in cut-out which resets itself once the motor cools (e.g. if it suffers a blockage). A dedicated, waterproof socket on top of the genset itself seems prudent. The larger, 1 hp units can pull over 15 running amps (@110v) and 5-6x over that for starting, and even the more common 1/2 hp models require 10-11 amps to run. Maybe not an appliance you necessarily want to plug into any old AC socket that happens to be nearby.

Dock -- what do you mean by your ability to disconnect your entire AC electrical system from your genset? I have the usual switch that energizes the genset vs. shore power, plus two add'l breakers that have to be switched on to access whichever source. Does your genset have something in addition to this that further isolates the electrical system?

[a64pilot]

There are upsides and downsides to everything, you use your gen set fairly regularly, so you know it will work, electric motors can be unused for years and still be counted on, properly grounded and insulated as I am sure any motor meant to be submerged is, and any electrocution hazard is extremely unlikely.
CG would drop a gas pump, cause what else is self contained?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

There are upsides and downsides to everything, you use your gen set fairly regularly, so you know it will work, electric motors can be unused for years and still be counted on, properly grounded and insulated as I am sure any motor meant to be submerged is, and any electrocution hazard is extremely unlikely.
CG would drop a gas pump, cause what else is self contained?

Yes, the CG has no idea what equipment a vessel in distress may or may not have onboard -- or whether it will be working -- by the time they arrive. As you say, a gas powered pump seems like the only self-contained and thus viable option that covers as many scenarios as possible.

Fwiw, in researching various electric & gas-powered pumps, I'm noticing an additional distinction btwn. high capacity submersibles designed for moving water only, as opposed to actual "trash" pumps which can tolerate small solids more typically found in a flooded boat. Dock mentioned this as a comparison to our typical 12v bilge pumps, but I didn't realize there was a further distinction. There is quite a size and price increase for actual "trash" pumps.

I agree you can drive yourself nutty with all of these "what if" scenarios, as well as spend a lot of time and $$$ chasing them all down. In my case, it helps that I'm 2,000 miles away from my boat at the moment, there's snow on the ground, and it's about 15º F outside.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

. . . Dock -- what do you mean by your ability to disconnect your entire AC electrical system from your genset? I have the usual switch that energizes the genset vs. shore power, plus two add'l breakers that have to be switched on to access whichever source. Does your genset have something in addition to this that further isolates the electrical system?

I added a transfer switch which disconnects the AC electrical system and transfers the connection to the waterproof socket. It is specifically for a flooding emergency.

I did this because I was worried that the system could short out somewhere in a flooding emergency and flip the breakers, although the generator is high above the waterline.

This one:



It's IP68 rated, which is probably not all that relevant since the generator will have been flooded and shorted out long before the water reaches the switch. The switch and socket is just under the level of the cockpit sole, so by the time the water gets to this level, the decks will be awash and we will already be in the liferafts.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

. . . Fwiw, in researching various electric & gas-powered pumps, I'm noticing an additional distinction btwn. high capacity submersibles designed for moving water only, as opposed to actual "trash" pumps which can tolerate small solids more typically found in a flooded boat. Dock mentioned this as a comparison to our typical 12v bilge pumps, but I didn't realize there was a further distinction. There is quite a size and price increase for actual "trash" pumps.. . .

Bingo.

Thanks for pointing this out.

In my opinion the ability to deal with solids is crucial for a real crash pump.

This requires a lot more power and ideally, larger hoses. Mine has a 2.2kW (!) motor and uses a 3" fire hose.


I've said it before, but another advantage of this setup is that because it is portable, you can save someone else's boat besides your own. That would be really satisfying to be able to dewater and rescue another boat in a flooding emergency before the Coast Guard arrives.