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Old 22-05-2013, 11:18   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watercolor View Post
Captain Bill - In March of this year I asked Forespar about the conflict in the numbers for Marelon. I also asked which numbers reflected the current state of marelon.

I was sent the data sheet http://www.forespar.com/pdf/930136-m...-standards.pdf

Those are the same numbers I used in my original comment.
Oh, there is more

The page you ref here does not exist, but one of the pages you linked in your orig post now shows new numbers - 27k and 1.5M

Looks like a very recent change from Forespar, perhaps they finally heard your rant
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Old 22-05-2013, 11:20   #107
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I personally don't care about some standards, I just want a strong through hull that doesn't break under normal and slightly abnormal circumstances and certainly does not deteriorate or become weaker when immersed in sea water.

That's what I thought I had ... A modern, technically competent through hull and seacock.
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Old 22-05-2013, 11:34   #108
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Originally Posted by Fuss View Post
But Jedi,

What about us aluminium boats........ .... I guess we all have to weld in standpipes!!!
Yes aluminium is easy, weld in those standpipes I would go for minimum 1.5" (38mm) and put the Forespar Marelon OEM93 valves in, or those French ones. After the valve, reduce diameter to what you want.
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Old 23-05-2013, 16:24   #109
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Re: Marelon seacock failure

epistosaurus – Thanks for the response, I’m really looking for some thoughtful input. My interest is not Forespar, Groco’s flange, the Spartan seacock style or ball valves, it’s about the “standards”. In particular, ABYC H-27 and UL 1121 “standards. Please note the quotation marks.

What does the “standard” say? Does it address the issues all of us boaters assume it does? To be honest, I don’t believe the ABYC, especially when it comes to thru-hulls and seacocks, has done the boating public a service.

But that’s another story.

Let me get to your point about Forespar’s data tables, in particular the comparison table and the ABYC/ISO tables presented by Forespar.

1. The first time I saw the Forespar Marelon/ABYC/ISO table (see attached) was back in 2002. The first time I saw the Forespar materials comparison was probably in 2007. By the way, you aren’t the first to be fooled by the chart (more on that later), I have seen it quoted/attached to many comments on this topic on this and other forums for many years. The fact is, for the last 7 plus years Forespar has not removed that false information. Both tables are on the Forespar website:

Marelon ABYC & ISO

Click on “Marelon® Superior vs. Other Materials Comparison Chart” to see the comparison chart and “Marelon® Exceeds ABYC & ISO Standards” to see the actual values for Marelon, (for some reason I can not get the later chart to load all the time). As you’ve noted the comparison chart shows significantly higher values. I’m also attaching PDF of both these charts.

At the end of March 2013 I emailed Forespar asking them which sets of numbers was accurate values for Marelon, the comparison table values (tensile strength (27,000psi and flexural modulus 1,300,000psi) or the ABYC/ISO table values (tensile strength (17,000psi) and flexural modulus (700,000psi.) Forespar responded by sending me the ABYC values tables were correct and provided the following attachment. So I can comfortably say that all products made before March 2013 have a tensile strength 17,000psi and flexural modulus 700,000psi.

I can further state that the comparison table Marelon values of 27,000psi and flexural modulus 1,300,000psi ARE NOT the values for the carbon fiber ball valves. I can further state that the comparison tables ARE the exact values for Dupont Zytel nylon 66 33% glass loaded 70G33L – BK. And that Marelon is, in fact, Dupont Zytel nylon 70G13L – BK.

I’m attaching the Dupont Zytel data sheet that has both 70G13L and 70G33L the material characteristics. Also, please note that on both tensile strength and flexural modulus you will see 3 sets of values:

DAM = Dry as molded. The test part is tested shortly after its molded
50% RH = 50% relative humidity. A test done on the part at 50% humidity.
100% RH = 100% relative humidity. A test done when the part is fully water saturated.

This is due to the fact that nylon is hydroscopic and degrades in water.

2. At this time I don’t know the exact composition of the carbon fiber ball valves. What I can tell you is that:

a. They are very new, and represent only 3 models of the regular 93 ball valve. Probably, less than 1% of Forespars valve sales.
b. And probably less than .01% of the ball valves in use or in stock.
c. The carbon fiber ball valves are threaded to ASTM standards, so the thicker 93 thru-hulls WILL NOT fit. Only bronze or Stainless steel or the thin walled Marelon thru-hulls (nnnnnnnnnnn) can be used.
d. Forespar has not seen fit to provide the tensile strength and flexural modulus values for it.
e. They aren’t the values in the comparison table.
f. If you look at the Forespar site (xxxxxxxxxx) you will see a display that says “CARBON REINFORCED” (I've attached the actual page) and displays a group of Forespar plumbing parts. None of those parts are “CARBON FIBER REINFORCED.” I believe Forespar can truthfully state that all the black parts on the page ARE “CARBON REINFORCED” although the “REINFORCED” might be a stretch. If I’m not mistaken, DUPONT uses “CARBON BLACK” to produce the black color. If it has any reinforcing value it's miniscule.
g. Carbon fiber is simply a filler, it’s the resin that really critical.

There’s more. But give this some thought. And please respond with questions, issues, conflicts in anything I’ve said.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Forespar Marelon ABYC.pdf (87.8 KB, 41 views)
File Type: pdf Forespar Marelon Comparison.pdf (114.0 KB, 34 views)
File Type: pdf Fspar carbon reinforced.pdf (244.2 KB, 27 views)
File Type: pdf Zytel 70G series pgs 4-5.pdf (84.6 KB, 235 views)
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Old 23-05-2013, 17:29   #110
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Re: Marelon seacock failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
I am not a big fan of the cone type valves like spartan. The problem is they are hard to move after they have been sitting for a bit. You have to loosen the nut and tap the cone loose to get them to move. I write them up all the time during surveys because I cannot move them by hand pressure and the Spartans in particular are missing handles. In an emergency this can be a difficult. You would have to find a wrench and hammer just to close the valve. I can just imagine doing this at sea at night with water pouring into your boat. Most owners I run across have no clue how to do this and for them the valve is just stuck and they may do more damage trying to close it if not done right. There is no perfect solution I see other than plan of replacing your valves every 10-15 years and at the very least servicing them once a year at haul out time.
Maybe I've just been lucky as the 6 old cone style Spartan seacocks on Seraph all work like a charm after 29 years of service. The two in the cockpit drains are the only ones that stay open 24/7 so I have to rotate them every so often, every 6 months maybe, to keep them operating 100%. I service them very little. Last time was 8 years ago and all work perfectly with only the head, gets used the most, drips a tad when open. I'll stop that whenever I get around to tightening the cone a bit. None drip even slightly when closed.
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Old 16-06-2013, 14:12   #111
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Re: Marelon seacock failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopCar View Post
Colemj, the photo you posted is of the new improved Marlon seacock. If the OP had that, he probably wouldn't have broken the stem. The old style doesn't come with that nice plug.

They are only trying to sell the new style to boat builders. There are so many different versions of it that it is unlikely you would find one on a marine store shelf.
It's a very clever system with lots of variables.
Here is a link to it: Boat Marine Plumbing OEM Smart Valve Thru Hull

They Forespar will supply the OEM valves to order takes about three weeks I am just about to replace the GROKO vales on Highland Fling.

They are about 5 years old and we have 15 on her They were replaced when Highland Fling was 7/8 years old BUT without reference to me or i would have insisted they used Marelon ones.

SEVEN 1.5" ones two in each head one for the head one for the holding tank and yes we have three heads and one for the galley sink

SEVEN .75" ones two in each head and one for the engine

ONE .5" one for the Volvo Drip-less shaft seal which i am also replacing after 13 years of drip-less service and yes i let the shaft rotate when we are sailing. That said i am thinking about replacing our nice big three bladed fixed prop with a MaxProp or a KiWi prop now.

FOUR of the 1.5" valves were solid and the operating shaft that is designed to turn the ball was not rectangular any more where it sat in the ball it was well rounded. With three of the valves it was obvious we had a problem BUT one did feel like the valve was turning when in actual fact the ball was stuck in the fully open position DANGEROUS.

I will post pictures here ASAP first of the GROKO valves then the Marelon ones and installation.

I am going with the flush thru hulls so no worries about wiping out a plastic fitting that is proud of the hull surface and NO MORE concerns with electrolysis and brass or bronze fittings. I have a plastic boat so why not plastic thu hulls/sea-cocks and no that is not an opening to tell me how wrong i am.
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Old 16-06-2013, 14:25   #112
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I have a plastic boat so why not plastic thu hulls/sea-cocks and no that is not an opening to tell me how wrong i am.
You wouldn't have a beneteau or anything , maybe even a Rocna or un-tinned wire , some CFers could really have a go at you then !!

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Old 16-06-2013, 15:35   #113
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Re: Marelon seacock failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopCar View Post
I guess Spartan is the last company making the old style tapered plug seacocks. Not much wrong with them but price. ($235.00 for a 3/4" Seacock)
You can buy a very good Apollo Flanged 3/4" Seacock for less than $60.00 and a lot of people think that's too expensive. That's why you see so many regular ball valves screwed directly onto thruhull fittings.
I suppose when you get right down to it, it just depends on what you think your boat is worth.
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Old 16-06-2013, 20:35   #114
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Re: Marelon seacock failure

HighlandFling

Just something to think about if you haven't already bought the Forespar 93's.

While some of the bronze stems may be rounded, the seacock will not leak and you can at worst use a pair of vise grips of channel locks to close the valve.

Please take a good look at the following pictures. The integrity of the 93 is totally dependent on the threads of one nylon nut and that is the weakest point on your boat (multiplied by 15). Ever cross threaded a nylon nut or bolt that's lived in a moisture laden environment.

Read the following.

CRITICAL UPGRADES - DO THESE OR ELSE!!!
Catastrophic seacock failure! - Catalina 36 International Association Forums

Attached are some pictures of the 93 innards.

I'd stick with the best bronze seacocks you can get.
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Old 16-06-2013, 21:47   #115
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Re: Marelon seacock failure

If you're going to use the 93 ball valve you'll need to use the older 849 series thin walled thru-hull fittings or the existing Groco ones, that 849 thin-walled thru-hulls aren't ABYC or UL 1121 approved, the following is not an issue.

However, if you're using the 93 series thru-hull/seacock combination, I hope that Forespar has explained to you the issues regarding retro-fitting 93 series in place of a standard seacock like Groco, or even Forespars 849 seacock. The oddball thru-hull fitting dimensions of the 93 and the standard thru-hull fittings you currently have are completely different regarding inside diameter (ID) and outside diameter (OD).

The 93 series seacock comes in 6 sizes, but the thru-hulls come in only 3 non-standard sizes.

So you'll have to drill out the hole for your 1/2" seacock because the thru-hull OD is designed to a close approximation of a standard 3/4" thru-hull OD.

On the 3/4" thru-hulls, if you want the same thru-flow of your Groco 3/4" thru-hulls you'll have to go to the 1" size. The 3/4" 93 has the same ID as a standard 1/2" thru-hull ID. For an engine raw water unit this could be disaster. If you use the 1" you'll want the female threaded designed seacock to step down the hose size or change the hoses to 1". Also if you want the full 3/4" ID capacity you'll have to drill out these holes also.

All the 1 1/2" seacock holes will need to be drilled out to accept the larger OD of the 93 1 1/2" thru-hulls. They're just under 1/4" oversized.

Hope this is of some help.
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Old 17-06-2013, 07:29   #116
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Re: Marelon seacock failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watercolor View Post
If you're going to use the 93 ball valve you'll need to use the older 849 series thin walled thru-hull fittings or the existing Groco ones, that 849 thin-walled thru-hulls aren't ABYC or UL 1121 approved, the following is not an issue.

However, if you're using the 93 series thru-hull/seacock combination, I hope that Forespar has explained to you the issues regarding retro-fitting 93 series in place of a standard seacock like Groco, or even Forespars 849 seacock. The oddball thru-hull fitting dimensions of the 93 and the standard thru-hull fittings you currently have are completely different regarding inside diameter (ID) and outside diameter (OD).

The 93 series seacock comes in 6 sizes, but the thru-hulls come in only 3 non-standard sizes.

So you'll have to drill out the hole for your 1/2" seacock because the thru-hull OD is designed to a close approximation of a standard 3/4" thru-hull OD.

On the 3/4" thru-hulls, if you want the same thru-flow of your Groco 3/4" thru-hulls you'll have to go to the 1" size. The 3/4" 93 has the same ID as a standard 1/2" thru-hull ID. For an engine raw water unit this could be disaster. If you use the 1" you'll want the female threaded designed seacock to step down the hose size or change the hoses to 1". Also if you want the full 3/4" ID capacity you'll have to drill out these holes also.

All the 1 1/2" seacock holes will need to be drilled out to accept the larger OD of the 93 1 1/2" thru-hulls. They're just under 1/4" oversized.

Hope this is of some help.

Thanks but i knew all of this/most of this and we are installing the OEM all in one Seacock/thru hull and hose barb the 93 series integrated units also we are installing the flush thru hull so the holes for the thru hulls will need a fair bit of modification.

Re your other post ONCE the GROKO actuator shafy is rounded at the ball end these is NO WAY to get the ball turned with pliers or anything like that to turn the ball you woudl have to make a new stronger actuator shaft prob of stainless steel. Like i explained ONE of the GROKO valves 'felt OK' like it was operating fine BUT the ball was stuck in the open position that was a potentially very dangerous situation.

I see i need to take some pictures ASAP

Do you know what - this reminds me of my avitar and how some people were so anti Concorde and then we take the first backward step in aviation by permanently grounding every last one of these magnificent planes OWELL I anticipate being very very comfortable and very happy with my Marelon fittings IF not i will post any actual problems and issues here. I would suggest you don't hold your breath waiting for my post though.
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Old 17-06-2013, 10:09   #117
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Re: Marelon seacock failure

SPALLUN COWWECTUNS

Re your other post ONCE the GROKO actuator shaft is rounded at the ball end there is NO WAY to get the ball turned with pliers or anything like that. To turn the ball you would have to make a new stronger actuator shaft prob of stainless steel. Like i explained ONE of the GROKO valves 'felt OK' like it was operating fine BUT the ball was stuck in the open position that was a potentially very dangerous situation.
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Old 17-06-2013, 14:19   #118
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Re: Marelon seacock failure

chm-
Out of curiousity, is your failed seacock actually marked "Marelon" or is it simply black plastic? I ask because marelon is fairly robust, and generic black nylon is not, and folks often mistake "black plastic" for Marelon.
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Old 17-06-2013, 14:50   #119
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Re: Marelon seacock failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
They Forespar will supply the OEM valves to order takes about three weeks I am just about to replace the GROKO vales on Highland Fling.

They are about 5 years old and we have 15 on her They were replaced when Highland Fling was 7/8 years old BUT without reference to me or i would have insisted they used Marelon ones.

SEVEN 1.5" ones two in each head one for the head one for the holding tank and yes we have three heads and one for the galley sink

SEVEN .75" ones two in each head and one for the engine

ONE .5" one for the Volvo Drip-less shaft seal which i am also replacing after 13 years of drip-less service and yes i let the shaft rotate when we are sailing. That said i am thinking about replacing our nice big three bladed fixed prop with a MaxProp or a KiWi prop now.

FOUR of the 1.5" valves were solid and the operating shaft that is designed to turn the ball was not rectangular any more where it sat in the ball it was well rounded. With three of the valves it was obvious we had a problem BUT one did feel like the valve was turning when in actual fact the ball was stuck in the fully open position DANGEROUS.

I will post pictures here ASAP first of the GROKO valves then the Marelon ones and installation.

I am going with the flush thru hulls so no worries about wiping out a plastic fitting that is proud of the hull surface and NO MORE concerns with electrolysis and brass or bronze fittings. I have a plastic boat so why not plastic thu hulls/sea-cocks and no that is not an opening to tell me how wrong i am.
Groco had a quality problem about the time your valves were installed. They have a service bulletin on their website:

"... GROCO's design for the imported valves series shown above specified a high-grade stainless steel valve stem. We have discovered that the stem material used in some of the valves manufactured between 2004 and 2006 may not have complied with our specifications. Valves with out-of-spec stems may not be suitable for salt-water use. Since the non-compliant silver color stems may fail when the valve is actuated we wish to have all such valves removed from service. GROCO will supply replacement valves at no charge.
..."
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Old 17-06-2013, 15:41   #120
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Re: Marelon seacock failure

PICTURES

of my GROKO BRONZE BALL VALVES

These were on the same boat in three locations in each location one valve failed....the only difference is the height of the valve relative to the water line. Also Highland Fling sails in the Caribbean for 5/6 months of the year for the other part of the year she is parked on the hard.

On two of the valves the operating shaft was rotating in the ball one had some friction so it seemed as if the valve was operating properly..one was stuck OPEN one was stuck almost closed and the other well it was stuck half open/or half closed depending on your mindset.

IF you look very closely at the end of the operating shaft you can see it is now rounded off and totally useless. Sorry about the quality of the pictures i was in a rush to take them and get them posted here.
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