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Old 21-03-2018, 05:26   #31
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

John, Do you feel with your design you would ever need a Soft hard start module?
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Old 21-03-2018, 05:37   #32
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

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Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
John, Do you feel with your design you would ever need a Soft hard start module?
Hi Richard , no we have not found any need for a "soft start module" . The Danfoss BD series compressors as you know , are LBP/MBP/HBP and have no start issues in our design.

Regards John.
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Old 21-03-2018, 05:46   #33
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

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Originally Posted by OzePete View Post
Sorry John, I missed seeing your post / request.
If you are referring to the video indicating how to check power supply voltage drop with a multi-meter when there are supply issues, then the Motor Driver Module was a 101N0500 operating on a Danfoss BD50.

If you are enquiring about the type / model number of the 'Soft Start' Motor Driver Module we use and are now testing on Danfoss / Secop and other compressors, sorry but we will not be releasing info on this until we are satisfied with its adaption. I will email info to you and Rich when we can. Enough to say at this stage they could be the answer, as all (we are trialling many) have withstood harsh testing without failure. Actually before release I will post one to you N/C for you to play with. Listening to the compressor start slowly through six stage start while never exceeding run current rate will be like music to your ears!!

Cheers,
OzePete www.ozefridge.com.au

Hi Pete.

I Just ask because I know you don't use Danfoss compressors or there controllers in your systems. Im not sure who makes your compressors.

Does this machine you are testing have a Danfoss compressor in it ??

Also we have never found a need for the added circuitry of a "soft start module" we have never had a compressor failure due to this issue . We do all our own R&D and try not to add any unnecessary failure points to our system , thank you but I wasn't asking about your new module , just the voltage drop test . Of course I can't speak for Rich , but I will ask him the next time I see him.

Regards John
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Old 21-03-2018, 22:51   #34
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

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Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine View Post
Hi Pete.

I Just ask because I know you don't use Danfoss compressors or there controllers in your systems. Im not sure who makes your compressors. We haven't used Danfoss for about eight years and what you are using is actually a Secop compressor made in China, and in my opinion far better than when Danfoss was Danfoss them in Europe!.

Does this machine you are testing have a Danfoss compressor in it ?? YES an older BD50 with a 101N0500 driver as stated in earlier post!

Also we have never found a need for the added circuitry of a "soft start module" we have never had a compressor failure due to this issue . I think you and Richard C are confused as to what 'Soft start is. Rich from 'Blue' recently posted that the Secop compressors are now with a soft start driver. So you may already be using them And surely you are aware of the high failure rate of the old Danfoss / Secop Motor Driver Modules! We do all our own R&D and try not to add any unnecessary failure points to our system , Quite the contrary John, 'Soft start will reduce driver failures and that is most likely why Secop is reportedly using them also now. thank you but I wasn't asking about your new module , just the voltage drop test . Yes it was an older BD50 with a 101N0500 driver Of course I can't speak for Rich , but I will ask him the next time I see him. It was Rich that reported Secop delivered Soft start modules to him recently so will be interesting to get his opinion also



Regards John
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Old 22-03-2018, 07:05   #35
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

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Originally Posted by OzePete View Post

Pete
I understand what a soft start circuit is.

I am unaware of a soft start function in any of the new 101N0212 controllers and I am unaware that Rich stated that they have a soft start function.

Please send me the Danfoss literature thats states that these new controllers have a soft start circuit built in because I can't find it . I am only aware of a HST improvement , (High Stating Torque)

The main thing that kills the modules as we all know is heat , voltage spikes, and salt air corrosion. Not hard starting .

We are using the new controllers . In testing I have found them to be very nice items . We use the 650 now and they are incredibly RF quiet and have next to zero DC leakage .

Regards John.
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Old 22-03-2018, 21:07   #36
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

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Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine View Post
Pete
I understand what a soft start circuit is.

I am unaware of a soft start function in any of the new 101N0212 controllers and I am unaware that Rich stated that they have a soft start function. My apologies John, it was in Rich's thread, FYI: New Danfoss BD35/50 Control Module, but a post by Dougtiff (#5) that is was said to be a soft start driver.

Please send me the Danfoss literature thats states that these new controllers have a soft start circuit built in because I can't find it . This site; https://www.secop.com/fileadmin/user...esa100c102.pdf [/URL]I am only aware of a HST improvement , (High Stating Torque)No, HST is very different from soft start

The main thing that kills the modules as we all know is heat , voltage spikes, and salt air corrosion. Not hard starting . Agree but high starting current and the failure to sometimes start, (that DOL high current starting contributes to), adds considerably to electrical component heat and stress. So reducing those issues with soft start will reduce failures.


We are using the new controllers . In testing I have found them to be very nice items . We use the 650 now and they are incredibly RF quiet and have next to zero DC leakage . Hopefully John that 101N0650 you use may be a soft start driver! Check on the link above.
Have you checked the current with a CRO upon start up? The Secop data sort of infers that 101N0212, 340 and 650 are all soft start.


Regards John.

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Old 23-03-2018, 08:28   #37
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

Noted , I didn't think Rich B said anything about a soft start feature, I read that thread when it started . It is not stated on any of the literature that we get because we don't use the AEO controller unless a customer orders one .

We choose to use the 650 controller because of the incredible lack of RF interference . We have had complaints about the systems making noise on VHF and SSB radios when they are running. Not anymore , we tested the new 650 controllers and they are very RF quiet . We also choose the 650 because of better leakage insulation , they now do not use 5ma when units are off .

We have not had any issue with hard stating but we will put on a scope and look for the soft start logarithm . It may well have it without stating it in the Literature

Regards John.
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Old 24-03-2018, 08:16   #38
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

John, The need for a soft or hard start modules could be just another band-aid to overcome a system engineering problems. Modifying starting software overload amperage inside module can allow an increase in system heat and pressure to go unnoticed shorting compressor life.
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Old 24-03-2018, 08:28   #39
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

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Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
John, The need for a soft or hard start modules could be just another band-aid to overcome a system engineering problems. Modifying starting software overload amperage inside module can allow an increase in system heat and pressure to go unnoticed shorting compressor life.

Hi Richard , I agree .

We have never had a system fail due to hard starting . Danfoss controllers will not start if there is a differential pressure of 75 psi or more, already. A soft start may over ride this . I see no need to add this circuitry to our systems . I am in the process of testing our new 650 controllers and will report back if I find a soft start logarithm in the programing of these new controllers. I have many other parameters to check as well.

Regards John.
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Old 24-03-2018, 10:22   #40
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

John, Your unit's design with extra large condenser will hold starting loads and compressor heat down. As long as compressor operates most of the time within Danfoss engineering design limits you should not require additional electronic start up modification changes.
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Old 24-03-2018, 11:02   #41
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

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Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
John, Your unit's design with extra large condenser will hold starting loads and compressor heat down. As long as compressor operates most of the time within Danfoss engineering design limits you should not require additional electronic start up modification changes.

Hi Richard .

Yes you are correct . We hold our condensing temperatures to within one degree of ambient temperatures . Compressors runs very cool. Our average amp draw to maintain box temperatures is 1.6 amps/12v with a BD35 . Pulldown amps never exceed Danfoss's recommended parameters at any speed . We never had a need for any type of start assist.

Regards John.
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Old 24-03-2018, 21:51   #42
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

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Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
John, The need for a soft or hard start modules could be just another band-aid to overcome a system engineering problems. Modifying starting software overload amperage inside module can allow an increase in system heat and pressure to go unnoticed shorting compressor life.
WOW! I can’t believe your comment above Richard! Not only are soft start and hard start still being bandied together by you when they are totally opposite, but the rest of your inference above indicates that ‘Soft Start’ is not even slightly understood.

And by the way, if you guys believe that all is well with the Motor Driver Modules of the past and no improvement is required, try telling one of the many users who have had to fork out big dollars for replacement modules, some many times.

So here are some basic facts.
With the old modules, (with Direct On Line starting, DOL) start up causes an instant inrush of currents up to 7-10 times higher than run current rate, and starting torque up to 3 times higher than running torque.
DOL involves an instant increased torque and inrush current at start up resulting in sudden mechanical stress on the machine which leads to a reduced service life, stress and heat build up of the motor windings, and unnecessary excess power consumption. .

A soft start module reduces the load and torque in the power train ,and electric current surge of the motor during start-up. The motor starts slowly then ramps up to run speed and all without current exceeding the normal run rate. This reduces the mechanical stress on the motor and shaft, as well as stresses on the motor, attached power cables, battery supply and electrical distribution network, extending the lifespan of the system.

A soft starter eliminates the undesired side effects of DOL starting, and obviously with less start stress the module and compressor will have greater longevity.

Cheers OzePete Ozefridge | 12 Volt Refrigeration Systems
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Old 25-03-2018, 05:29   #43
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

So is the above simply an evolved feature of compressor/kit manufacturers improving what's included, or available with third-party add-ons?

Could you give a similarly detailed rundown on Hard Start, and how either relates to the use of "capacitors", maybe other styles?
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Old 25-03-2018, 06:54   #44
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

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So is the above simply an evolved feature of compressor/kit manufacturers improving what's included, or available with third-party add-ons?

Could you give a similarly detailed rundown on Hard Start, and how either relates to the use of "capacitors", maybe other styles?
Hi John 61...

There are two (perhaps three, could be more!) types / methods of motor start modules commonly used in the past and now for these small 3 phase AC compressors, albeit with many variations and add ons.

1: A Direct on Line start Motor Driver Module: A most common type. (Also sometimes perhaps wrongly called a Hard starter) This is where full voltage, current, and run frequency is applied to the motor on start up causing it to try going from zero RPM to maximum speed virtually instantly. This causes a massive current surge and stress on the mechanical and electrical components of the compressor. Start current in rush can be 7 to 10 times the normal run rate so imagine the stress the Motor Start Module on say a BD50 goes through each start up with up to 40+ amps applied even if only for a moment or so! (And they wonder why the Motor Driver Modules fail!)

2: Direct on Line Hard starter. The term ‘Hard Starter’ usually refers to a single phase split winding motor requiring extra current / torque to boost start ability usually via start capacitors. I am not familiar with this method being used on these small 3 phase compressors or if it is possible..

3: Soft Start Motor Driver Module. This method allows the motor to start slowly, ramping up to full speed over 5 to 10 seconds without the current draw exceeding the normal run current. Therefore the start current rate for the same BD50 as mentioned above would not exceed approx 4 to 5 Amps during start up eliminating the stress normal with DOL starting.

Until several years ago when we were able to access a soft start Motor Driver Module, we had an unacceptably high rate of module failure. Since using the soft start module we have had negligible motor driver failures. We believe this is due to eliminating that whack of current that DOL is about and fitting external Transient Voltage clamps.

Regards comments suggesting extra circuitry etc... non-sense. These motor driver modules operate basically the same. They accept Direct Current input, convert it to Alternating Current then split into 3 phases of AC to drive the 3 phase AC compressor motor at a pre determined frequency (speed). Very smart stuff! The Soft Start Module is simply configured and programmed differently with no additional external bits!

I hope this helps, trying to simplify something complex is not easy!

Cheers, OzePete Ozefridge | 12 Volt Refrigeration Systems
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Old 25-03-2018, 08:30   #45
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Re: Isotherm CR165 Compressor Fridge

Pete .

Do you use Danfoss compressors or controllers in your systems ?

Regards John
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