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Old 04-08-2015, 05:02   #46
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Re: How do you light a stove?

Down under, (Australia), electrical fires are also the main contributors followed by 'vapour' fires such as battery compartments. Then engine fuel fires which is attributed to poorly maintained, cracked fuel lines and petrol fires. There's not a lot of boats over here that have petrol inboards so those fires are most likely more to do with filling of outboard motors.

I've rarely heard of LPG (you guys call propane) explosions. But, we do hear of people dying in boats and caravans through leaking appliances. Very sad. Go to sleep at night and wake up dead the next morning.
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:32   #47
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Re: How do you light a stove?

According to USCG stats, over the span of nine years (2005-2013) there were 505 reportable accidents in the US whose cause was due to "Ignition Of Spilled Fuel Or Vapor." The total number of deaths: 7. And realize, this would include all fuels (gas, alcohol, kero, diesel), not just propane.

During this period the total number of accidents reported (for all causes) was 46,479. The total number of deaths: 6,788.

So, by any standard the number of propane-causes accidents in the US (and presumably in other countries) is exceedingly small. I'm not at all suggesting propane is not dangerous ... of course it is if handled improperly. But to suggest propane-causes accidents "are anything but rare" is simply wrong.
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:38   #48
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Re: How do you light a stove?

FWIW, I also like kerosene, both boats have kero stoves and kero bulkhead heaters. All the above stated advantages.

I find they work really well. My Wife was initially skeptical but she has become a convert.

We do have a Magna grill, and keep the small propane bottles in the old propane locker, along with other flamables.

The new Taylor's stoves (distributed in the USA through St Brendans Isle) are expensive, but are infinitely serviceable. Never need to replace again.
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:40   #49
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Re: How do you light a stove?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy View Post
... I have no reason to think our Shipmate oven does not work, the broiler seems to work fine...
Are there any logical ways to light an oven?...
Shipmate Stove/Oven Instructions
Shipmate Stove Operating Instructions
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Old 04-08-2015, 06:13   #50
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Re: How do you light a stove?

My wife happens to run BoatUS's loss prevention program, edits the seaworthy magazine, and does the claims analysis that are quoted above. She is actually doing an updated fire analysis right this minute.

I just asked her about propane - she said they get less than one per year, they get more fires from kero and electric stoves/hot plates, but still very few, and they get way way more explosions during refueling/handling gasoline (including dinghy gas).
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Old 04-08-2015, 06:53   #51
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Re: How do you light a stove?

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
My wife happens to run BoatUS's loss prevention program, edits the seaworthy magazine, and does the claims analysis that are quoted above. She is actually doing an updated fire analysis right this minute.

I just asked her about propane - she said they get less than one per year, they get more fires from kero and electric stoves/hot plates, but still very few, and they get way way more explosions during refueling/handling gasoline (including dinghy gas).
Guess we all need to steer clear of Greg (Post #31) then. On the basis of less than one per year and the number he has personally witnessed, the name Jonah comes to mind.
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Old 04-08-2015, 07:10   #52
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Re: How do you light a stove?

Fact, propane is heavier than air. A boat is basically a bowl. Why even take the chance that your equipment is perfectly maintained.

I've seen the remnants of two homes that had gas explosions. One left a completely cleared foundation, the other splintered the house and damaged the homes to either side (only one block away from my daughter at college).

I realize statistically you are fine. But anytime you can lessen the odds even a little, why tempt fate?
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:40   #53
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Re: How do you light a stove?

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Fact, propane is heavier than air. A boat is basically a bowl. Why even take the chance that your equipment is perfectly maintained.

I've seen the remnants of two homes that had gas explosions. One left a completely cleared foundation, the other splintered the house and damaged the homes to either side (only one block away from my daughter at college).

I realize statistically you are fine. But anytime you can lessen the odds even a little, why tempt fate?
But your not tempting fate. For a gas explosion to do that to a home, it had been leaking for a long time and filled the house and then something ignited it.

On a boat with propane, the system should be installed by a licensed gas fitter, it should have a certificate as such. The propane bottle should be kept outside of the main cabin and any appliances should only be turned on when being used. The boat should have at least one gas detector installed and preferably with a bilge alarm which are mandatory in some places.

This is not leaving anything to chance. And if this simple basic process if followed then you have lessoned the odds to zero. Nothing further can go wrong and nothing does go wrong.
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:12   #54
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Re: How do you light a stove?

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But your not tempting fate. For a gas explosion to do that to a home, it had been leaking for a long time and filled the house and then something ignited it.

On a boat with propane, the system should be installed by a licensed gas fitter, it should have a certificate as such. The propane bottle should be kept outside of the main cabin and any appliances should only be turned on when being used. The boat should have at least one gas detector installed and preferably with a bilge alarm which are mandatory in some places.

This is not leaving anything to chance. And if this simple basic process if followed then you have lessoned the odds to zero. Nothing further can go wrong and nothing does go wrong.
Well maybe not zero but to what we call in the oil industry (and I am sure other industries) ALARP or As Low As Reasonably Practicable.

Don't think you can reduce risk to zero as Mr Sod and Mr Murphy along with Senor Chaos and Miss Adventure can always appear out of nowhere.

Keiron
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:43   #55
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Re: How do you light a stove?

OK, I'll yield (sort of) to statistics: it does seem that it is "rare" for a boat to explode from propane. It would be less rare if it weren't for modern improvements to propane equipment, and to the general awareness of the need for caution. I don't see these statistics as an argument for cavalier handling of propane.

My own experiences were collected over several decades and in many different countries, and not from a single insurer covering a modest number of cruisers in one country, so it seems reasonable that I have a large accumulation of what can go wrong (no apologies given for that).

BTW when returning to the US I tried to get insured by Boat US (after years with Pantaenius in Europe) but couldn't even get a real person to communicate with me. The application was so tailored to boats moored in a single state that I was unable to complete it accurately (I was still on the move, heading home). I have serious doubts that they represent much of the world cruising community. Then again, I also doubt that world cruisers are as likely to handle propane badly as the casual weekender. That said, it does seem clear that propane is unlikely to be a problem given reasonable handling. And I still like my kerosene stove, and would probably opt for a Wallas diesel stove should I need to change (not likely as I have a large horde of spare burners and parts).

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Old 04-08-2015, 16:28   #56
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Re: How do you light a stove?

Gosh, we are an argumentative crew on this thread

Allow me to continue in the same vein and clear up some other points raised...


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Originally Posted by kas_1611 View Post
Diesel is not the same as Kerosene.

I (or others) never claimed it was the same, I suggested similar and in the context of cooking where you where you posted that cooking with Jet fuel was scary, I maintain that diesel, jet fuel and kerosene are similar (but not the same).

Jet engines do not run on Diesel.

Incorrect. Many (all??) jet engines will quite well on diesel. Most are not approved for extended running on diesel but this is more to do fuel purity and fuel storage issues along slight variations in SG etc. But accidentally put diesel in the tank instead of say Jet-A1 and it will run OK although there will be some smoke at light-up.

The US military use JP8 (essentially Jet A1 plus 3 additives) as a single fuel for aircraft and ground diesel applications.

In fact some variants of the PT6 are also approved for av gas (as in petrol or gasoline) in extenuating circumstances and for short periods.



Concorde did not do Mach 2.2 running on Diesel. They are similar in that they are heavy hydrocarbon fuels but that's where it ends. In fact Kerosene is added to Diesel in winter to help Diesel burn better (reduces waxing).

Yes I agree liquid hydrocarbons are slightly safer as the liquid does not burn but the gas given off by said liquid that burns, hence why you have to preheat Kerosene (and some Petrol) stoves with a more volatile fluid first.

However the LEL in air for Kerosene is actually 0.7% compared to Propane at 2.1% so it is highly explosive in gaseous form, even Hydrogen is 4%! With a flash point of 38C (100F) on a hot day it is possible to get enough vapour for a spark to ignite the fuel, hence why you don't leave your ignition on or use a mobile phone in a petrol station.

One last point is that Kerosene and Diesel are both carcinogenic according to the MSDS sheets I have seen whereas Propane has no mutagenic or carcinogenic properties known.

All hydrocarbon fuels are inherently flammable and explosive given the correct conditions and must be treated with respect. Mistreat them and they will bite your ass.

I can agree with all of this and especially your last sentence
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Old 04-08-2015, 16:35   #57
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Re: How do you light a stove?

I didn't quite follow your post watname, but planes don't fly on diesel. At least they wouldn't stay up very long. It's true diesel can power turbine engines, but not aircraft turbine engines.

If your saying they do, then i'd like to see that documented.
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Old 04-08-2015, 16:44   #58
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Re: How do you light a stove?

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I didn't quite follow your post watname, but planes don't fly on diesel. At least they wouldn't stay up very long. It's true diesel can power turbine engines, but not aircraft turbine engines.

If your saying they do, then i'd like to see that documented.
Maybe not but JP fuel is basically kerosene. How did it get to a conversation on planes?
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Old 04-08-2015, 16:47   #59
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Re: How do you light a stove?

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I didn't quite follow your post watname, but planes don't fly on diesel. At least they wouldn't stay up very long. It's true diesel can power turbine engines, but not aircraft turbine engines.

If your saying they do, then i'd like to see that documented.
Re-read posts 17, 28 & 41. It will make sense then .

You are right that "planes don't fly on diesel" but that's because they aren't approved to, mainly for reasons stated above" but aircraft turbine engines will run OK on diesel. Heck, they will even run on av gas (which is really only certified petrol) and as stated the common workhouse aircraft turbine engine, the Pratt and Whitney PT6 is approved to fly on av gas for short periods.

I will try to dig up a reference later, just waiting now for road to clear of snow before off to work!
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Old 04-08-2015, 16:49   #60
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Re: How do you light a stove?

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Maybe not but JP fuel is basically kerosene. How did it get to a conversation on planes?
I think post #17 started it this time, not me

Jet A is almost exactly kerosene and Jet B is a naphtha & kerosene mix, AFAIK.
The fuel experts might like to correct me if that is wrong
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