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Old 25-10-2011, 13:47   #1
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Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

This is a blog post I just made, and I would appreciate any help from the Cruisers Forum readers as I ponder the direction I am taking for refrigeration on Windsong:


The system that came with the boat is a 1991 model Seafrost system with engine driven and AC/120v compressors. There is a larger refrigerator and a smaller freezer box which seem to be stock iceboxes on a Downeaster. The system was not functional when I bought the boat, but serviceable. I decided to get rid of the whole thing and start anew for a few reasons. First is that the engine driven compressor is great for a charter boat, or someone who will be motoring a ton anyways. I won't be, so I need a different kind of compressor. The AC compressor is a great ad-on but only works when attached to shore-power, of which I won't be when cruising. I won't be using the freezer as mentioned above, so I will just use the freezer space for an icebox and extra storage.

In addition, the existing iceboxes are less than adequately insulated for tropical cruising. Most sources recommend at least 4 inches of polyurethane foam for insulation, mine has only 3. Of course there are other types of foam and vaccum packed insulation that require other thicknesses, but the poly is what I'm going for. I will most likely leave the freezer unit as is, and just beef up the refrigerator icebox.

Original refrigerator:



Refrigerator components:



Cold plates:



So now I have two tasks:

1. Figure out what kind of refrigeration system I want
2. Plan and execute the rebuild of the icebox

I have narrowed my decision of the refrigeration type to a few different unit types. The first decision is whether to go for an integrated/traditional style marine refrigeration system, or a stand-alone/powered icebox system.

The integrated system is similar to the one that came to the boat, but with different compression systems. The choices are air cooled, water cooled, or keel cooled compressors. Since I will be cruising in the tropics, I've eliminated the idea of an air cooled system like most people have. While they are cheaper and easier to install, they require more energy and are less efficient in tropical/hot climates. The water cooled units are much more efficient since the water is generally cooler than air and transfers heat easier. However, the same idea can be applied using the newer keel cooled compressors that eliminate the need for a water pump (which draws a bit of energy itself). The keel cooled compressors have gotten great reviews by their users, and are even highly suggested by the author I have learned so much from: Nigel Calder in his Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual, practically the bible for all marine systems. Basically, the keel cooled compressor brings the refrigerant lines to the water (instead of the water to the compressor via pump) via a plate or thru-hull below the water line. Some of the units I am considering that have received great reviews are Frigoboat, and Isotherm kitsets. Here is a link to a Frigoboat installation by Soggy Paws: click.

Keel cooler:


The other direction I could go is that of a stand-alone refrigeration box system. I have recently read about these boxes and have been intrigued by the endorsements a few respected blogs have given them. Boat Bits and Oddasea (click for article links) give some good insight into these units:

Quote:
"I’d known about mobile refrigeration units since I was a teenager in the Boy Scouts. 4x4 camping, expeditions, and humanitarian aid projects often equipped themselves with vehicular refrigerators - highly efficient integrated units with DC power supplies, high-tech insulation, and modest but acceptable internal space. Hell, a lot of fellow sailors on smaller boats had them. I’d somehow never thought about them on a larger boat - namely “my boat” - because mine had a built in fridge. But while I was researching boat refrigeration, I stumbled upon an old post on Boat Bits that reminded me how sane of an idea it was. The kicker isn’t just efficiency, as important as that is, its long-term reliability. Boat fridge units are notoriously unreliable and inefficient, often requiring the engine to be run to generate enough power (or in extreme cases to even produce refrigeration power at all!). In the hotter climes its not uncommon for them to be breaking down within months of the last repair due to high duty cycles and thermal overload. But these mobile units were designed specifically for these harsher environments, with insulation and refrigeration mechanics well matched to each other and designed purposely to deliver 100% performance in blistering 43.5 C (110F) heat while consuming a very modest power draw suitable for solar or small vehicle power. The Boat Bits article specifically mentioned some Aussies who had excellent and highly reliable self-contained fridges aboard.2 And I just so happened to have a fantastic magazine at hand which reviewed the most revered of these units worldwide: Overland Journal." - Oddasea
These are essentially powered coolers with refrigeration and freezing capabilities that run off 12v/DC or 120v/AC power. They are touted as being extremely reliable, rugged, and energy efficient. They were originally made to transport medical equipment and other supplies to remote areas like deserts, and to work no matter what. One of the more popular manufactures of these boxes is Engel, such as the unit below. However, the units mentioned in the Boat Bits and Oddasea articles seem to be more rugged.



The trouble with these units is that I will need to find a place to put it. They are obviously air-cooled, but apparently can withstand high temperatures and still function efficiently. However, it doesn't seem I can just sink the unit into the ice box space and still be able to reach the controls and have enough air flow around it for it to work properly. If I wanted a unit like this, I would need to seriously modify the existing icebox area or find a new place entirely to keep it. This is my theory anyways, and if anyone can tell me otherwise I am all ears. These units have major upsides though, particularly the fact that they have freezer capabilities and are supposedly extremely reliable.

If I were to go the keel-cooled integrated unit, I would need to proceed with the icebox upgrade. If I were to go with the box style unit, I would need to modify the icebox area to contain the box or find another space for it. All of which will require some cutting, grinding, glassing and sanding. I want these done before I clean up the interior and paint so I can move aboard.

Here is a look at the existing iceboxes. As you can see below, the original refrigeration box is well designed, just too thin in the insulation department. There is also a large hole in the side that was covered by a teak panel, but left void of insulation. I plan on filling in this hole if I go with the integrated unit:








Freezer box:



I am currently leaning towards the keel-cooled unit unless I have a great lightbulb moment on how to carry the box unit aboard without giving up too much space.

Please chyme in on your thoughts and if you were in my shoes, which direction you would go. Also, would my old Seafrost system have any value to be sold?

Thanks!
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Old 25-10-2011, 14:42   #2
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Re: Help with refrigeration decisions...

I'm in the same process and am planning on dropping an Engel MB40 into the giant hole where my icebox used to be. The rest of the space will be freed up for storage (half the crap in my icebox was in there because of the "box" part and not the "ice" part anyway), with the option to drop a second Engel in beside the first and still retain some dry storage space.
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Old 25-10-2011, 14:46   #3
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Re: Help with refrigeration decisions...

Beersmith:

I have a Frigoboat system on my boat with the smart controller. I think that this is the way to go. The seawater keel cooler lets the system operate more efficiently with cooler sea water condenser temperatures and the smart controller matches the speed of the compressor to the cooling load so that it works even more efficiently.

In my system with an original 8 cu foot refrigerator, I partitioned about 2 cu feet as the freezer and the balance as the refrigerator. The evaporator coil was installed in the freezer compartment and it operated as a spill over system. It had about the same 3" of polystyrene insulation as your existing box. FWIW polyisocyanurate which is available at Home Depot or Lowes has about 25% better R value per inch than polystyrene. But sprayed polyurethane is just as good.

Once I adjusted the heat balance between the two (with a small hole in the partition) the freezer would stay at about 20 deg F and the refrigerator about 40. You wouldn't want to rely on this 20 deg freezer for long term storage, but a cruiser doesn't need long term. All you need is enough freezer time to get between good and cheap provisioning sources- maybe 1-2 months. 20 deg worked fine for that.

My system settled down (after the smart controller went through a few cycles) to use about 4 amps while running and ran about 1/2 of the time for a 24 hour amphour usage of about 48. This was in the mid Atlantic states in the spring, so daytime temps were in the 70s. Your tropical location will require more.

A previous boat with the same size partitioned freezer/refrigerator but with a simple air cooled Alder Barbor system used 50% more amphours.

If you plan to split your freezer from your refrigerator then you need two systems. Again I would go with two Frigoboat systems.

FWIW use large wiring for the DC supply to the Frigoboat compressor- at least 12 gauge. The smart controller is very sensitive to low voltage and if it is much below 12 V (at the compressor terminals), it won't start.

David
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Old 25-10-2011, 14:57   #4
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

I am in the middle of the same process. Only difference is the system I am tossing is an old air cooled Cold Machine.

If you will be liveaboard, long term cruising I would go with the built in unit. A lot more work than dropping in the Engel but a better long term solution.

Also, go to Richard Kollman's website www.kollman-marine.com and read everything there.

Insulation, polyurethane is very hygroscopic (absorbs moisture from the environment). Once it gets wet, and it will UNLESS you completely seal it in 3-4 mil plastic, it will no longer insulate. Use sheet polyurethane, not the pour in or spray in stuff. Polystyrene sheet (Dow Blueboard) has slightly lower R value but is more moisture resistant, but still a good idea to seal it in.

Testing on current units show that air cooled are more efficient and reliable than water or keel cooled unless you spend all your time in very warm tropical climates.
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Old 25-10-2011, 23:42   #5
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

for what it's worth -

i have a 37 footer that came with an engine drive / shore power crosby refrigeration system with cold plates and separate freezer and fridge compartments. but it wasn't working and looked like big dollars to fix, after which i would still have engine drive which i didn't want for the same reasons you dont want it.

so i ripped the whole thing out and replaced it with an air cooled adler barbour 12 volt system. where the freezer once was is where the adler barbour now is; the fridge side now contains a freezer box and six cubic feet of fridge. so far not a single problem (five years) and this is in florida and the bahamas. i'm guessing amp draw is under 60 amps which i can just about supply with my kyocera 135 watt solar panel.

a liveaboard friend of mine on a morgan 28 out island converted his ice box to storage and bought an engel 'portable'. he's very happy with it and claims amp draw is less than 30 per day.
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Old 26-10-2011, 10:25   #6
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

We went through a similar process. For me it came down to:

Reinsulate the ice box and install built in refrigeration:

- cost: $2000 - $3000 + 40 hours of labor.
- electric usage: 60 - 80 AH / day
- end up with large refrigerator plus a freezer

Engel:

- cost: $1000 + 3 hours of labor
- electric usage: 20 - 30 AH / day
- end up with small refrigerator and no freezer
- reclaim a very large and ideally positioned storage area in the kitchen

Since I can easily live without the freezer (I have no problem going without fresh meat for long periods of time), it seemed pretty clear to me the Engel solution was better in every other criteria. Cheaper, way less power, and I really wanted that storage area for other purposes.

We put it under the table in the salon (we have a bulkhead mounted fold down table it lives under).

So we basically gave up a freezer and some leg room under the table. In return we got a huge storage area in the galley, saved some money, and need to generate ~40 less AH per day.

It was really the AH that swayed my decision. I do not think we have regretted it at all. So far the Engel is quiet, reliable, and plenty big for our needs.
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Old 26-10-2011, 10:34   #7
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
We went through a similar process. For me it came down to:

Reinsulate the ice box and install built in refrigeration:

- cost: $2000 - $3000 + 40 hours of labor.
- electric usage: 60 - 80 AH / day
- end up with large refrigerator plus a freezer

Engel:

- cost: $1000 + 3 hours of labor
- electric usage: 20 - 30 AH / day
- end up with small refrigerator and no freezer
- reclaim a very large and ideally positioned storage area in the kitchen
That's basically my calculations as well, but (1) you apparently work faster than I, and (2) you left off Option C:

2 engels
- cost: $12000 + 3 hours of labor
- electric usage: 20 - 30 40-60 AH / day
- end up with small refrigerator and no a small freezer, or two fridges, or two freezers, or a backup
- reclaim a very large slightly smallerand ideally positioned storage area in the kitchen
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Old 26-10-2011, 11:50   #8
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
We went through a similar process. For me it came down to:

Reinsulate the ice box and install built in refrigeration:

- cost: $2000 - $3000 + 40 hours of labor.
- electric usage: 60 - 80 AH / day
- end up with large refrigerator plus a freezer

Engel:

- cost: $1000 + 3 hours of labor
- electric usage: 20 - 30 AH / day
- end up with small refrigerator and no freezer
- reclaim a very large and ideally positioned storage area in the kitchen

Since I can easily live without the freezer (I have no problem going without fresh meat for long periods of time), it seemed pretty clear to me the Engel solution was better in every other criteria. Cheaper, way less power, and I really wanted that storage area for other purposes.

We put it under the table in the salon (we have a bulkhead mounted fold down table it lives under).

So we basically gave up a freezer and some leg room under the table. In return we got a huge storage area in the galley, saved some money, and need to generate ~40 less AH per day.

It was really the AH that swayed my decision. I do not think we have regretted it at all. So far the Engel is quiet, reliable, and plenty big for our needs.

After reading some threads and other info sent to me on the Engels, I am very high on them. My issues with it are:

1. Where in the world would I put it? I have a lot of space on my Downeaster 38, but I am not sure where it would be ideal to have it with easy access. Does anyone have other ideas on where these could be located? See drawings below

2. Would it heat up the cabin, as it is air-cooled?

I will be living aboard in Florida and cruising in the tropics, so extra heat is an issue.

My cabin layout:



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Old 03-11-2011, 08:05   #9
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in and given opinions on my refrigeration decision. I still am up in the air on which direction I will go, but currently I am leaning towards a keel-cooled system over the powered cooler.

I should note that I am really sold on the powered coolers, i.e. the Engel Fridge/Freezer units. The popular choice seems to be the Engel MT45F-U1 AC/DC Fridge Freezer which can be a fridge or a freezer, but I have my eye on the Engel MT60 Combo, which has individual freezer and fridge compartments.

However, the problem of where to put the thing on Windsong is perplexing me. After mulling it over, there are only a couple of options that would provide adequate airflow and decent accessibility from the galley. The first idea was to cut a big hole in the galley bulkhead and house the unit in the engine room as shown below:





The space on the engine room behind the wall would give it enough airflow to work. I could install some sort of door and be able to slide the unit out over the galley counter tops to be accessed. When done loading/unloading, you could just slide it back in there and hidden away. Of course, it would need to be solidly secured in place for sailing. Engel sells a Fridge Slide Tray for MT45F-U1, but not one for the 60. However, it wouldn't be too much of a problem make my own sliding tray for whatever model I would get.

Unfortunately, the simple issue of dimensions make this idea unfeasible. The MT60 happens to be shorter than the 45, but measures in at 31.1"L x 19.3"W x 17.4"H. The clearance of the bulkhead is right at 20", but tapers down to about 18" after the 19.3" width. Add in the need to clear the fiddles on the counter tops and the dimensions of the sliding tray underneath it, you are left with no space. Another hurtle would be the need for a platform/shelf in the engine room compartment for it to sit on. This space was used for the previous refrigeration components, and would probably be used for a new refrigerator compressor regardless. But the Engel unit would go further back and eat up the space where the starter battery sits, so I would have to find space for that elsewhere. Lastly, it would eliminate the already tough access to the storage compartment to port.

The second idea is to put it under the navigation table using a sliding tray to pull it out for access. This is the likely the best solution, but I would loose leg space and any hope of sitting at the navigation table. It might also require me to move the electrical panels from this area as they would be mostly inaccessible with the fridge in the way, in or slid out.

Sorry for the quality, this is the best one I can find without going back to get another one tonight:



The Engel's pro's are excellent efficiency in terms of power consumption, reliability, solid construction, can be run on 12v or 110v, and the advantage of being able to freeze or even have a dual-compartment unit with a freezer. The con's are: even if I get the biggest of these units, it will be only a fraction of the space of my existing icebox/refrigeration space. While I would gain the existing icebox space for storage, the placement of the thing is perplexing and I have not found a satisfying solution. On top of all of this I think I would want a bit more refrigeration space for living aboard here in the States, even if refrigeration space isn't as high of a priority while cruising. The existing icebox is only about 6-7 cubic feet as it is, and will probably shrink if I add insulation to it. The MT60 measures out to only 2.12 cubic feet. Since I will probably be living aboard for a while, I really have to take that into consideration.

I believe if I were to go with a keel cooled unit I would make improvements to the existing icebox in stages. First I would beef up the insulation to the lids as some Downeaster owners have done. I would also improve on the hinges and give the lids locking ability. The previous hardware would swing wide open in a roll-over. I would add some gasket/weather-proofing to the lids, something that should have always been there but wasn't. I will fill in the big hole/gap in the side that I showed in the previous post, as well as the large holes from the previous installation. Lastly, I will plug up the drain as it won't really be needed anymore. I won't make it a permanent plug in case I need to use it someday for whatever. The area below the fridge is inaccessible so improving the drain hose with insulation and a water trap is not possible.

With these improvements, I hope the efficiency of a keel-cooled refrigeration unit will be acceptable. If it isn't up to par, I will add insulation to the inside of the box until I am satisfied.

So while I have yet to make my decision on which direction to take, I am leaning heavily towards improving my existing icebox and installing a keel-cooled unit. I still am mulling over the Engel units and how to make one work, but I am not liking the "where to put the damn thing" options. Even if I were to get the keel-cooled unit, I would probably end up getting one of the much smaller Engel units to use as an efficient freezer.
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Old 03-11-2011, 08:51   #10
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustymc View Post
That's basically my calculations as well, but (1) you apparently work faster than I, and (2) you left off Option C:

2 engels
- cost: $12000 + 3 hours of labor
- electric usage: 20 - 30 40-60 AH / day
- end up with small refrigerator and no a small freezer, or two fridges, or two freezers, or a backup
- reclaim a very large slightly smallerand ideally positioned storage area in the kitchen
From my experience with the Engel in refrigerator mode they use minimal power. In hard freeze mode they use a lot more power. I still love em.
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Old 03-11-2011, 08:59   #11
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

Have you looked at the Engel drop-ins?

Engel MB40-DH Drop-In Fridge-Freezer(attached compressor)

I've got one in the mail - hopefully I'll actually know something about them in a week or so.
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Old 03-11-2011, 09:37   #12
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

We used an Adler Barbour air-cooled unit in the tropics for 15 years with no problems--installed in a freezer with spillover to a cooler. Insulation was probably between 3 and 4 inches, and the daily draw ran from 25 amp-hrs in 55 degree water to 60 amp-hrs in 90 degree water. The compressor was installed so that it sucked cooler air from the bilge. It exhausted into the cabin, but the heat from a 300 btu/hr compressor is not noticeable. The unit ran for 25 years with absolutely no maintenance-it came with the boat and I had planned to put a different system in if it ever had problems. It kept meat frozen inside its evaporator box and would make ice cubes, and that was enough for us.

I would strongly recommend against installing any refrigeration equipment in the engine space--the temperature there is typically 20-30 degrees higher than the rest of the boat.

The drop in Engel unit looks interesting, but the inside dimension is less than 1.5 cubic feet.
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Old 03-11-2011, 10:35   #13
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

What donradcliffe said.
Keep the cold and hot separated !!

I redid the box on our boat about ten years ago, installing the compressor in the same manner as he did, sucking up bilge air.

As we speak I'm in the process of rebuilding the box using aerogel insulation, replacing the aging compressor and will be installing a keel cooler system.
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Old 03-11-2011, 11:08   #14
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

move the sink to port and use a corner model to free up space under the counter for the engels. Would they fit there if the sink wasn't taking up space?
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Old 03-11-2011, 11:21   #15
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Re: Help with Refrigeration Decisions . . .

We put in an Adler Barbour system about two weeks ago. We went air cooled after reading about problems with water cooling and talking to other folks. The extra amp draw from the circulating pump is supposed to be less efficient than just using air. We also went with a traditional holding plate so that we could determine when the unit ran and run it when we were producing the most power (when it is sunny and windy or the engine is running). Great Lakes Skipper has a great deal on the Adler Barbour Cold Machines right now ($1500 for the unit and holding plate). There is a guy named Richard who is sometimes on this forum and others who is very knowledgeable. His website is here:

KollmannMarine Boat Refrigeration Specialist

I would take a look at it while you are doing your research.
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