Heating and Cooking

[Soiree]

For more than you wanted to know about the difference between diesel, jet, kerosene etc. visit KEROSENE FUEL PRIMER
I have never done any business with him, but an interesting read.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

I appreciate the caution on the maintenance. I have not done any maintenance on my Taylor heater so when I haul my boat out I'll clean/replace parts to get a better working setup. I've noticed that the thermocouple doesn't work and I have no filter in place.

Since I have gravity feed from a small tank, I'm thinking of buying a Baja Filter, H&B Baja Filters, LLC, and using that to filter my diesel. I guess I could use the same filter for kerosene. I really want to try burning kerosene instead of the diesel to see if it puts out similar heat, but burns cleaner. Has anyone burned kerosene in a diesel heater designed to burn both and if so, what were the results?

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Woah - Thanks for the incredible Kerosene Fuel Primer link !!! What a terrific listing of info !! I have my homework assignment now

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Well, after doing some quick searching and I did find the following:
I found a link to a forum (Living Aboard Forums: Hydronic heating?), which led to a website (International Thermal Research Home Page) and product for a diesel hot water heater/cabin heater combo that is: http://www.itrheat.com/documents/Hur...V2.5LR_000.pdf and Hydronic Heating Systems

Soooo, I called the company Toll Free at (800) 993-4402; I was told that my questions about marine installation are best handled by John Brooks and his cell phone number is (360) 931-6917. I called John and found out the following info:

You can set up the system with 1 1/2" inner pipe and 3" outer pipe + 1/4" - 1/2" between outer pipe and deck so figure 3 1/2" inches for the thru-deck exhaust/intake with double-wall construction. The smallest unit is a 25,000 BTU device, but the 35,000 BTU lets you heat water and a cabin with plenty of heat. They use flex exhaust, but you can use solid if you prefer. There is a Plate Heat Exchange about 3" x 1 1/2" high (Double Plate Heat exchanger) inline and you can see the layout for the exhaust on page 3-5 of the following manual: http://www.itrheat.com/documents/Hur...ual2008Dec.PDF

Page 7-5 shows the layout with a hot water heater inline along with a heat exchanger that goes through the engine and page 9-2 was another configuration wihtout the hot water that he showed me. There are other configurations shown in the PDF.

I questioned the bends in the diagram on page 3-5, but he said if you lose 1 1/2" of the 12' max run for hard bends, you can get away with it. I think I would still run it as straight as possible. This diagram also shows it venting out the SIDE of the boat and I questioned that, of course. He mentioned a plug you can put in it, but you can run it up through the deck and use a charlie noble if you prefer, which is what I would recommend on a sailboat.

They only handle hot water heating and cabin space heating. I asked and they don't make stoves.

Is anyone familiar with this Canadian company (International Thermal Research (ITR) of Richmond, BC. Canada was established in 1984 ) ???
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Also, from that same forum I found this:
kabolaUS

It looks like they have oil stoves and heating systems, but I'm not sure if they are closed combustion chambers ... Will have to look at later ...
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I think I may have found a Wallas heater with closed combustion:
http://www.scanmarineusa.com/wallas_furnace_30d.pdf

Gotta run and help a friend with a computer problem ...

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Looking into the espar diesel units (D8LC Model):
Espar - D8LC

Imperial Diesel Variant (D)
Voltage = 12 volts
Heat flow (btu/hr) Small Large
11,942 27,296
Heater air flow rate (cfm) 146 151
Fuel consumption (gal/hr) 0.088 0.231
Mean electr. power in operation (amps) 9.6 9.6
Weight (lbs) 30.8
Size (inches) 25.7 x 10.2 x 9.8

Contact: Canada & U.S. (800) 387 - 4800

These units seem to be designed for commercial vehicles rather than for a
marine application so I wonder about how well these hold up in a marine
environment.

Here is a link to their technology page with a diagram of a unit:
Espar - AIRTRONIC Technology
Here is a video link: Espar Air Heater

The video mentions that it uses microprocessor safety controls ... Hmmmm, in a marine environment ??? I think I would want a simpler system that is more bulletproof ...

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Heads Up - Baja Filters is going out of business due to the economy. They are selling off the last of their stock so if you haven't purchased a Baja filter and want one, then move fast: H&B Baja Filters, LLC - (703) 709-6360

I just bought one with a couple of extra water filter elements since those are specially coated.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Besides patent hits, I'm not finding marine diesel "closed combustion" heaters and stoves. I'm not real keen on the hydronic heating. I'm sure it is very effective and comfortable, but I hesitate to add more plumbing with circulating liquid going around the boat. I'd like something very simple if possible.

For instance, my Taylor heater would be great if it used a closed combustion chamber with a "pipe in a pipe" for exhaust and intake, instead of sucking air from the cabin and only sending exhaust outside. The reason is that you inevitably get odors and exhaust fumes released into the cabin, not to mention that a system running continually in cold weather would suck a lot of oxygen out of the cabin.

Anyone know of any marine "closed combustion" diesel/kerosene manufacturers? I think they are hiding and I want to give them some money ...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by D_e_n_n_i_s

Besides patent hits, I'm not finding marine diesel "closed combustion" heaters and stoves. I'm not real keen on the hydronic heating. I'm sure it is very effective and comfortable, but I hesitate to add more plumbing with circulating liquid going around the boat. I'd like something very simple if possible.

Don't kick it out of bed for eating crackers. What you get for that bit of small diameter plumbing is the device mounted outside of your cabin together with the attendant noise and fumes. My Eberspaecher (Espar) hydronic lives in the lazarette; cockpit lockers also work.

It drinks from your main diesel tank, and you can distribute the heat everywhere you want, using the small-diameter, easy-to-run hydronic lines and fan coils. It makes domestic hot water in a jiffy (just run a loop to your calorifier), and can be programmed to run unattended.

In my opinion hydronic heat is by far the best solution for heat in the absence of reverse-cycle a/c and shore power to run it on. It is also by far the most expensive but here you really get what you pay for. You can't really have heating more simple than this, and distribute it through the boat.


For cooking, if you really hate propane so much, why don't you consider an electric induction cook top. You can run it off an inverter when you're off shore power; it uses relatively little power.


If you really want to go stone age, you could just buy one of those diesel combination stove/cabin heater. There are a number available, some with vented exhaust:
Wallas Stoves | Boat | Heater | Furnaces | Cooking Equipment | ScanMarineUSA.com

Other makers include Dickenson and Sigmarine.

But these units are not really all that much cheaper than a proper hydronic, and only heat in the galley -- don't expect the heat to reach all the nooks and crannies of a 40' boat. Then the heat is not regulated, it's not producing domestic hot water, etc., etc., etc. I think hydronic is the only way to go, actually.

For cooking, I personally prefer propane. Needs no power at all, high energy density, nice hot flame, nice to cook on, simplest installation. If you have a good outdoor, vented gas locker, replace the hoses regularly, have a convenient electrical shutoff valve, and use common sense, I don't think it is so dangerous. But induction cooking also seems to be quite a good solution.


Here is one guy's experiences with a diesel heater/stove:

Any Experiences With Diesel Cooker? - World Cruising and Sailing Forums

"Hello,

I am restoring Hal and Margaret Roth's original Whisper. On Hal's advice I installed a Sigmar diesel stove. I carefully followed all of the installation and use instructions.

I lived aboard Whisper for a winter in New England and the Diesel stove proved an efficient source of heat. Obtaining fuel was easy as well. Saling offshore in November/December it was wonderful to go below to a warm, dry cabin. And cooking frozen lasagna at 0300 during a blizzard made a great treat for a tired, wet crew. We ate the lasagna straight from the aluminum pan.

But if the stove was cold, it would take an hour to get water hot enough for coffee.

Managing the stove became something of a hobby.

Worse were the downdrafts that filled the cabin with diesel smoke. This happened both at anchor and under sail.

Also new sails and dodger quickly became streaked with diesel soot as did the decks. Getting knocked up against the stack in rough seas and melting my foulies was no treat either.

Hal Roth died recently of lung cancer. I never knew him personally, but have not seen pictures of him smoking. I can't help but wonder if diesel fumes contributed to his illness.

I have since contracted a form of cancer that is common only among smokers and people working with certain industrial chemicals. I fit neither of those categores. Another suspected cause is prolonged exposure to diesel fumes. I cannot claim cause and effect, but..........

So against Hal's advice I am now installing a propane stove and heater aboard Whisper. Does anyone know of horizontal composite propane tanks smaller than 33 lb?

Merry Christmas,
Don"

[Hiracer]

I've seen several pictures of Hal Roth smoking a pipe. I know there's one in his book, How to Sail Around the World. And others.

He was also fond of oil lamps in the boat.

My dead simple diesel heater is vented to the outside, so there are zero fumes.

* * *

Off topic: I prefer electric ranges or stoves at home precisely because of the cancer risk posed by gas stoves and ovens inside the house. They throw off hydrocarbons which are not vented outside. Not a lot, but enough that I prefer electric.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Dockhead - You've given me a lot to think about ... I'm willing to shell out the bucks for a better system and I have to admit that being able to create a dry heat, heat water and a stove is no small feat for any system. I'll have to do more research on marine hydronic systems, but wish I wasn't planning on hauling the boat in April (Not much time left for research).

I do like that stone age kerosene/diesel heat, but fumes have always been a problem. I wasn't aware of co-axial flues until I reached this forum, but that seems to solve the problem of fumes and using cabin air; and those fuels produce great heat (Dry and plenty of BTU's). It's hard to find any that use the co-axial flues, but perhaps I just need to rig them up that way. For instance, Dickinson makes a "Propane direct vent fireplace" (Closed Combustion), but the diesel heaters are "Natural Draft" ... The sigs appear to be natural draft as well ... sigh ...

Electric devices can be done, but D/C is about 3 times more efficient as A/C so you lose a lot of juice. Charging the batteries is another hurdle I'm working on right now. Solar, wind and water generators (Duo-Gen, for example) just don't have enough energy density to do the trick, depending on what you want to run. Still, it's worth considering.

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Hiracer - Does your diesel heater vent exhaust, but draw intake air from the cabin or does both intake and exhaust come from the pipes to the outside? I have a Taylor diesel heater that draws air from the cabin and exhausts to the oustide and I do get some fumes into the cabin - though in all fairness I have not been filtering my diesel fuel and need to take the system apart and clean the feed components since it has not been done since I've owned it for about a half decade (except I did clean out the exhaust pipe and pot). It's not bad unless I really crank it up, but wind can cause it even with a charlie noble. Even though my unit can't be left alone, I would be afraid to run such a unit overnight (even if it could be left unattended) due to the fumes and removing oxygen from the cabin. I do love the dead simple principle as long as the "dead" isn't too literal I completely agree with you about the health concerns.

[gonesail]

check out web chiles blog journal .. a boat next to him had a propane explosion yesterday .. deck was blown away and people went to the hospital.

[GordMay]

What's in a name?
Fuels Around The World, Resources Chart
This chart is a guide for finding liquid fuels when traveling internationally.

Fuels Around The World

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by gonesail

check out web chiles blog journal .. a boat next to him had a propane explosion yesterday...

From Webb's journal
➥ Opua: explosion

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Propane ... Oh, I believe

Gord May - Great link !! It's a huge help to prevent misunderstanding and get everyone on the same page - Thanks !! I'm still learning about fuels. I want to burn the cleanest fuel reasonably available. If I do go with alcohol not vented outside (still looking for a diesel/kerosene alternative), then I would want to burn alcohol that is not denatured. After all, whatever they use to denature it is toxic and burning it would have to release some into the cabin. I suppose it could be dangerous keeping large quantities of Bacardi 151 rum onboard, but as long as I'm tethered I think I'll be fine .... lol ...

On that second link ... yeah, I really don't like propane even though it's the most commonly used gas onboard boats. It still doesn't make it the best choice, just the most popular. I'm willing to work to get my fire going.


I've got a question on these hydronic systems - Does the high voltage discharge spark only need to be turned on once to start the diesel/kerosene fuel burning or does it constantly need to be on?

I found another unit, not necessarily designed for marine use although they mention it: For your furnace, heater, and stove needs. Rural Energy Enterprises, Inc.

The electrical rating is 120 volts A/C power --> Is this just to engage the high voltage discharge spark to start the fuel running?

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

You know, I bet this is to run a circulating pump ... Soooo, this means that hydronic heating requires constant power. You could try to set up a natural flow with thermal currents and just the right angle of the pipes, but I doubt this would work well on a sailboat.