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Old 21-09-2009, 09:46   #46
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... Where did someone find evidence that salt water kills most bacteria and any viruses?
Or is this an extrapolation of the dilution-is-the-solution concept?
No, the antimicrobial properties of seawater are well known to produce "cleaner" water at sewage outfalls (ocean), than could be accounted for by dillution or dispersal.
However, I've found no evidence that these properties can render sewage-polluted waseawater "safe". Accordingly, I must conclude that it does not.
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Old 21-09-2009, 09:52   #47
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Right here in the USA and Canada municipalities dump raw sewage directly in the ocean every year
good point and true. i know for a fact that the spills happen and there is a BIG difference between a million gallon spill and a few gallons from a boat. sorry but the land dwellers are the ones that usually cause the huge problems. IMHO.
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Old 21-09-2009, 10:35   #48
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For those who rationalize sewage discharges as acceptable because fish do it, how about this -people should be able to crap up the oceans and let the fish do it in our homes.

You have obviously never had a large salt water aquarium in your house or had to care for them
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Old 21-09-2009, 10:42   #49
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... What's wrong with Cuba now?... The customs and immigration procedures take their time and must be repeated for every port... just like in the US and most of Central and South America...
Nick.
Exactly the opposite of what I like. I like the normal places - like the French Territories, Europe (haha - sure EU flag ;-)), then many West Indies places, the Pacific, Australia and the Indian Ocean.

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Old 21-09-2009, 11:10   #50
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Old 21-09-2009, 11:28   #51
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Barnakiel,

I agree, but many times these countries have so much to offer that the hassle and time it takes to complete the formalities is worth it. I mean, Cuba has much more to offer from a tourist/cruiser point of view than St Vincent and the people are much friendlier too. Same for Colombia & Panama: the formalities are minor compared to what you find there. I can think of a lot of good things for the US too, which is why we go there and endure the reception ;-)

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Old 21-09-2009, 11:34   #52
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About fish crapping in the oceans: most fish have been caught so there's more than enough room for the couple of boats to pump overboard.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that it only becomes a problem when a lot of people live in close proximity; I meant at least a city with that, not some boats in an anchorage. The places where this becomes a problem, like the BVI, are the places we skip because there's too many (charter) boats. I can't see how you can put so many boats in the Tobago Cays that it becomes a problem.

ciao!
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Old 21-09-2009, 12:37   #53
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I can't speak on Cuba and Colombia. Panama was horrible (because of the people). And many Colombians where I live now, not very nice either. A bit of a shocker - because Portugal and Spain (continental, Canaries and the Azores) are among my favorite stopovers. I just think the mix of cultures did not work in Central and South America. Or more likely it doesn't work just for me - I do not like the dirt, the criminality, etc..

I know it may sound not 100% PR but this is what my experience was out there (Cabo Verde, Panama, Brasil) years 2004 & 2006.

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Old 21-09-2009, 13:02   #54
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Barnakiel: when you write "Panama was horrible" you are wrong. You probably mean that your experience, transiting the canal was horrible. The only people you meet during that are the sharks: port captains, immigration, canal authority, agents, line-handlers etc. Anyone spending some weeks or months in an area like the San Blas will confirm that it is a little piece of paradise on earth. And all the people we meet in the shops, supermarkets etc. are extremely friendly too.

Panama and Colombia are among the few countries where people still respect and take care of each other. My wife broke her ankle and leg here in Panama and the whole experience with the hospital was an eye opener for us. We never found better care anywhere.

Our worst experience were the rasta's in the market of Bequia. I actually had to grap and shake one up a bit to make our shopping there possible. I still remember the applause from the non-rasta vendors there ;-)

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Old 21-09-2009, 13:38   #55
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As a civil engineer who deals with Sanitation....

Ok, put bluntly large amounts of poo dumped very quickly creates large concentrations of very bad things (bacteria, viruses, etc) in any water...

Small amounts spread over time (especially with tides, currents, etc) don't allow for a heavy concentration to build up.

As stated previously, in fresh water (or brackish water like the Ches. Bay) most of the bacteria will thrive for a while, but will (for the most part) be out competed by the local stuff. Anything that manages to make it's way into the bottom, esp mud.. will last longer.

Salt water does nasty things (ie causes H2O to move out of cells to try and equalize concentration) to most bacteria. Those that live in salt water have to compete for food with everything else already there and usually don't last very long (~2-5 days) but still stick around in quantities that your body can usually and easily defeat without your noticing.

It comes down to the level of concentration of 'poo' in the water as measured in several ways.

If there is a sewage spill in your vicinity, please leave for your own health and come back later!

This being said... I agree that boaters should use something like an lectra-san or a holding tank to treat the viruses and bacterial .... BUT!!!!

All those quaint cities who claim they can't afford to stop using combined storm/sanitary sewer systems (particularly in the NE USA) should stop whining about what boaters MAY be putting in the salt water and fix their own systems!

If a sewage treatment plant breaks down they HAVE to dump it! It's not like you can just tell everyone upstream to hold it and don't flush! However they should face fines for dumping related to the volume that they dump and it's concentration (there's a lot of difference between liquid poo and mostly dewatered poo!)

What is more of a problem is the fact that your poo (Everyone reading this) being that you are more or less the top of the food chain, has an increased amount of heavy metals and pharmaceuticals that CAN'T be removed economically at this time. The biggest offenders in our fresh water supply are female hormones (from birth control) and antibiotics.

So, Look around out... couple of boats, incoming tide or good current, no problem... Lot of boats... high tide... you might want to move on or wait for a bit if your really worried or get sick REALLY EASY. Everyone else, jump in the ocean and have fun...

I am a civil engineer. I make sure you have clean water when you turn the tap on and that the poo vanishes when you flush the commode, among other things... some of us even manage to keep places from flooding on occasion and we are usually responsible for acres of concrete appearing all over the world!

2divers

PS (seriously, if you have questions ask....)
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Old 21-09-2009, 17:24   #56
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Barnakiel: when you write "Panama was horrible" you are wrong. You probably mean that your experience, transiting the canal was horrible. The only people you meet during that are the sharks: port captains, immigration, canal authority, agents, line-handlers etc.

[...]

Our worst experience were the rasta's in the market of Bequia. I actually had to grap and shake one up a bit to make our shopping there possible. I still remember the applause from the non-rasta vendors there ;-)

cheers,
Nick.
Jedi:

When I say it was horrible I mean my experience of that country was horrible - criminality, stench, and everybody talking about respect - but not showing it to foreigners. The fully armed and bullet-proof jacket clad guards in every supermarket did not make things any better. My friends got attacked (twice) in the main street, in full daylight. They had to fight and the 'good local' onlookers did not even call the police.

When you say "...port captains, immigration, canal authority, agents, line-handlers etc.." do you imply these people are not Panamian, not people or what? (;-))) And "sharks" is not the word I would use, if I were to go the implicit route. Thanks god we speak Spanish - too bad we could understand the words they called us in the harbor office but at least we were able to pacify our 'advisor' who was one of the 'nice Panamian people' type. Asked for instructions (on rafting up with a motor yacht) he answered 'I do not know' and dozed off. So much for respect.

On the lighter vane - we too had a similar adventure with the rasta in Bequia - those who pretend to sell veggies while we all know they sell plants which are neither veggies nor fruits ... They asked me where I was from and I stupidly said something about the football and as they showed zero reaction to the name of my local football club I mentioned the Pope ... then I had only one eye's blink to change the line to ... and the Pope ... is the devil ;-)))). It ended up in not having veggies for that dinner and I am lucky it was only that bad.

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Old 22-09-2009, 13:15   #57
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I'm glad to finally hear from a real expert on the poo issue. It vindicates what we have done for years to minimize the problem--use one head with the holding tank exclusively for poo while in harbors/anchorages, and pump it overboard when we get in open water.

The best/cheapest veggies in Bequia are on the street outside the market, and you don't have to put up with the rasta dudes.
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Old 22-09-2009, 13:47   #58
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The best/cheapest veggies in Bequia are on the street outside the market, and you don't have to put up with the rasta dudes.
No Rasta dudes at Doris Fresh Food either.
Doris Fresh food on Bequia is a provisioning Oasis, but be prepared to pay up.
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Old 22-09-2009, 15:06   #59
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Yes, there is lady vegetable vendor just down the street from the official vegetable market. She is much easier to deal with. Get there early because she sells out quickly. Doris is great for just about everything but fresh produce and pricey, but you pays for what you get.

By the way, the vegetable vendors are not rastas. True rastafarians are gentle loving people who consider smoking pot as part of their religion. The reat just wnt to get high.
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Old 22-09-2009, 17:43   #60
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When I say it was horrible I mean my experience of that country was horrible - criminality, stench, and everybody talking about respect - but not showing it to foreigners. b.
This really should be in another thread... Maybe a Mod can spilt them?

Panama is as good as it gets for prices world wide. Its half the price of anywhere Asia, including Indonesia.

We have some definitive prices from Panama last year to Indonesia and Malaysia now and I can tell you don't go past Panama for a huge provisioning shop.

Try and stock up on boat clothes and storage food for a year or 2, and beer till the gunwales sink below the surface, and wine till the anchor light dissapears too.

No matter how violent Colon appears, Panama city is fine.




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