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Old 23-04-2011, 09:54   #16
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

Thanks for the maintenance tips. In retrospect Io guess my philosophy from previous days "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" was not such a good idea for the head.

New joker valves are on the annual list now.
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Old 23-04-2011, 10:26   #17
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

Some boat's holding tanks are on the right side of a toilet, some might be under the toilet, and many are on the left side of the toilet.

I've never understood why many toilets have the joker valves on the back side of the toilet, causing a 90 degree fitting to be installed to get the contents to the right or left side of the toilet. If they made the joker valve come straight out the right (for right side holding tanks) or the left side (for left side holding tanks), the 90 degree fitting could be eliminated altogether. This would let the contents pump straight through to the holding tank, eliminating one important choke hold in the system.
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Old 23-04-2011, 10:31   #18
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

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I looked at the Raritan web site for the PH II and it mentions a household size bowl but no specs or details. When I look at retailers for details I see only a standard and Hi-Boy models with no mention of a larger bowl. So is the Hi-Boy larger as well as taller? If not, where to I look for the larger, manual head?

Thanks

Try this site Raritan PHII Manual Head, White, Household-style Bowl
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Old 23-04-2011, 10:37   #19
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

The joker valve isn't in the toilet, it's in the discharge fitting. So whether that fitting needs to be a 90 or a straight depends on where the tank is. How is a toilet mfr supposed to know how many installations will need pumps that discharge out the right side, how many will need to discharge out the left side, or straight out the back. That problem is easily solved by offering straight and 90 degree discharge fittings. Toilet discharge 90 degree fittings are sweeps, not elbows, so they don't cause any "choke" in the system.

Doesn't sound like you've ever replaced a joker valve either, if you don't know where it is!
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Old 23-04-2011, 11:06   #20
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

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In guess my philosophy from previous days "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" was not such a good idea for the head.
Preventive maintenance is ALWAYS cheaper and easier than cure...and has the added advantage of allowing you to do it on YOUR terms...'cuz nothing ever breaks when the bowl or tank is empty and you have nothing better to do than fix it...it's always at the worst possible time.

This doesn't only apply to toilets, btw...but to every system on the boat!
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Old 23-04-2011, 11:09   #21
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

Thanks to all for the help. It appears the pumping lever (bronze arm base thingy) is not rotating its full revolution, because the space is so limited the arm hits the bulkhead about 85% of the way through the stroke. In our last groco the arm was bent, we thought by accident, but now it looks like the bend allows the head to pump properly. Brian will bend the arm when we get back to home port.

So thankfully the head works (whew!).

Thanks again for all the input.
Erika
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Old 23-04-2011, 13:16   #22
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

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Originally Posted by Ocean Girl View Post
Thanks to all for the help. It appears the pumping lever (bronze arm base thingy) is not rotating its full revolution, because the space is so limited the arm hits the bulkhead about 85% of the way through the stroke. In our last groco the arm was bent, we thought by accident, but now it looks like the bend allows the head to pump properly. Brian will bend the arm when we get back to home port.

So thankfully the head works (whew!).

Thanks again for all the input.
Erika
Oh Darn, I thought I was going to sell you my old, special size, discontinued, collectors item Groco for a couple thousand. Too bad the new one fits.
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Old 23-04-2011, 18:13   #23
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean Girl View Post
Thanks to all for the help. It appears the pumping lever (bronze arm base thingy) is not rotating its full revolution, because the space is so limited the arm hits the bulkhead about 85% of the way through the stroke. In our last groco the arm was bent, we thought by accident, but now it looks like the bend allows the head to pump properly. Brian will bend the arm when we get back to home port.

So thankfully the head works (whew!).

Thanks again for all the input.
Erika
Aw Shucks Erika,
I should have remembered that part. I had to do the same thing to the handle to get the full action on mine. Old Age
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Old 23-04-2011, 18:31   #24
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

Why not just cut the end off the pump handle?
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Old 23-04-2011, 18:55   #25
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean Girl View Post
Thanks to all for the help. It appears the pumping lever (bronze arm base thingy) is not rotating its full revolution, because the space is so limited the arm hits the bulkhead about 85% of the way through the stroke. In our last groco the arm was bent, we thought by accident, but now it looks like the bend allows the head to pump properly...
Erika
Common problem. I made a mock-up with 1/2" copper tubing (easy to bend) which was supposed to be temporary but wound up in place for six or seven years, finally replaced by a stainless steel tube with the same bends in it.
Other common problem is something (usually pretty gross) gets stuck between the flapper and the bowl, so the flap can't close and the full force of the pump doesn't get applied - frequently accompanied by a little geyser as well. I keep a pair of sacrificial long chop sticks around for those "events"...

Michael
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Old 23-04-2011, 19:20   #26
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Copper pipe great idea! When we get back to port Brian wanted to take ithe pump handle to our canvas dude to bend it properly. For now we are using a short bilge pump handle and it still rubs up to the bulkhead, so I think a really good bend in the handle is the best way. I like the copper pipe, cheap and easy to bend.
Thanks! You all are wonderful!
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Old 23-04-2011, 19:46   #27
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

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Originally Posted by peghall View Post
The joker valve isn't in the toilet, it's in the discharge fitting. So whether that fitting needs to be a 90 or a straight depends on where the tank is. How is a toilet mfr supposed to know how many installations will need pumps that discharge out the right side, how many will need to discharge out the left side, or straight out the back. That problem is easily solved by offering straight and 90 degree discharge fittings. Toilet discharge 90 degree fittings are sweeps, not elbows, so they don't cause any "choke" in the system.

Doesn't sound like you've ever replaced a joker valve either, if you don't know where it is!
I didn't mean to imply that the joker valve was "in" the toilet, but maybe it sounded like that.

I know where the joker valve is on the toilet I have, and you're right that it's not in the toilet. It fits in between the back of the toilet, and the hose that takes the contents to the holding tank. If water heater manufactures can make their units with the heat exchanger piping on either the front or the back of the unit for installation purposes, so can toilet manufactures.

I have replaced the joker valve before, along with other components in the system...it's not rocket science.

You may be an authority on toilets and things pertaining to them, but I find your demeanor in the toilet.
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Old 24-04-2011, 09:12   #28
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

"I made a mock-up with 1/2" copper tubing (easy to bend)"

Oops, blush blush - it was a 3/4" copper pipe...
Also made it about two feet long so I didn't have to bend over to pump.

Michael
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Old 24-04-2011, 09:30   #29
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

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Yes, sea water minerals build up in hoses--new as well as old. That may be the main cause of your problems. Muriatic acid (available from any hardware store) will clean it out....follow handling and use instructions VERY carefully! To prevent future buildup, once a week flush a cupful of undiluted distilled white vinegar ALL the way through the system to the tank to prevent sea water mineral buildup in the head discharge hose. Don't leave it sitting in the bowl and make sure to flush all of it out of the pump...soft rubber left to sit and soak in vinegar will swell up and distort. After an hour, follow with fresh water.

And don't use an auger through the toilet...if you must use one (unlikely if you maintain your system properly), disconnect the discharge hose from the toilet and insert the auger or snake directly into the hose.
Thanks, Peggy - glad to know about the sea water minerals and how to cure and maintain that. Was disappointed when we had to auger the hose a second time in two weeks. Now we know why. Thanks for the warning on ruining the rubber with vinegar - I have been guilty of that.

When the captain has used the auger, he disconnected the hose downstream of the 180 degree bend that has the threaded nipple. He found the shortest route for the auguer ;->
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Old 24-04-2011, 10:44   #30
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Re: Groco K head, taking a lot of strokes to empty bowl

No reason why my "demeanor" should put your knickers in a twist...you'd be amazed at the number of owners who've never replaced a joker valve in a toilet they've owned for 10 years.

Otoh, most of the people here, you included I'm sure, are a lot more knowledgeable than the typical "weekend warriors" who populate most forums...they're an entirely different breed from the typical boat owner 20 years ago. An amazing number of 'em don't even know WHAT a joker valve is, never mind WHERE it is. But even among seasoned cruisers, "fix only what breaks" replaces most, if not all, preventive maintenance on everything but the engine. No...it's not rocket science, but the boat owner's motto, "instructions???? We don' need no steeenkin' instructions!" kept me in business for as long as I owned my company.

So hang in there...you might even learn to like me!
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