Galley Sink Fills With Water

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by hpeer

It must be a loooooooong list.

Mine is. Gets to me occasionally.

Actually it's a pretty short list. Most trolls tend to the cranky side but actually do share useful info whereas this one appears to be a dud on that end.

[zboss]

I'm willing to listen to advice. Thats why I asked about the issue. Some people could have better delivery but that's the internet - we are all adults here.

Some guys just immediately go 5 alarm when you don't take their word carte blanche - even if you are listening.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by grantmc

I wonder? Could any of the ‘crap’ in that locker, be moving about when the boat is pounding through the water, well heeled? Is it at all possible that in the process that seacock is damaged by being bashed? And once that water starts pouring in those electronic pumps quickly become wet and stop working. Of course seacocks are a cause of boat sinking. They’re a hole in the hull.

It is just basic seamanship to close all seacocks on a passage. And of course seacocks must be accessible. And as someone pointed out each one should have a plug readily available in the event of failure.

I find it somewhat bizarre that people suggest all manner of plugs, alternative drain points, relocating the sink etc. Reality check perhaps. Seacock accessibility is boat design 101.

Actually a friend of mine with a Westerley Conway has just a spent considerable sum to move a couple of the boat’s seacocks to make them accessible. One was located behind a water tank and the other obstructed by the motor.

Yeah, well, take a look at most cockpit drains in sailboats.....

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by zboss

ha ha ha funny man!

I don't know how the conversation went from sink to bilge pump but my bilge pump situation is very good. I can pump more water more safely with just one of my four available pumps than three boats all together next to us in hope town this past spring.

BTW - I looked up bilge pump installation guide in H-22 ABYC and it says that check valves ARE ALLOWED to prevent the bilge pump from cycling in the case of backflow, which is why we have one in ours. I placed my pump outlet about two feet above the static waterline, for a total of a 5 foot lift. I measured using a bucket and it still pumps 3000 GPH.

What is NOT ALLOWED is relocating the bilge pump outlet in such a way as to extend out the run. The "rule" says it should be as short a run as feasible. So, by relocating your bilge pump outlets to make them more accessible you may have inadvertently violated ABYC guidelines. There are NO guidelines regarding the operation of said seacock. Nowhere is there any reference materials that say you must close all your seacocks every time you go to sea.

I can't see how it would clog at the check valve...the pump is equipped with a screening that prevents anything large from getting into it. It would stop the pump way before it made it to the valve. In the case that the valve would fail the pump would cycle. Not only does it sounds like a garbage disposal but it also has a light and a counter that I stare at everyday when working. So, if the valve slowly stopped working, I would immediately know. Even it it DID fail open we still have a vented loop even higher than the outlet.

I think the PURPOSE for their position is that they don't want check valves in below the waterline installation situations. That makes total sense and I agree with it.

We have a high water bilge alarm that we check at least every six months because we clean the bilge every six months or so.

My issue is my sink drain.

Everybody has an opinion. You made it clear in the OP. It's not a normal thing. Put a rubber stopper in the sink. Next time leave some room to get to the seacock or replumb your entire boat. That means either the replumbing or keeping her on an even keel.

[hpeer]

Just wondering why some boats have the problem and some don't.

Neither of ours do, but both drains are to fairly deep through hulls.

Is it possible that what is going on is that the through hull is coming out of the water and then slamming back down forcing water up the hose?

Or is the through hull continuously in the water?

[Cheechako]

BTW- If you use a bronze flapper check valve, it needs to be mounted horizontally or it wont check!!

[model 10]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Just wondering why some boats have the problem and some don't.

In the case of our boat, the water line is right at the bottom of the sink with the boat sitting still. If the boat is heeled over the water line is well above the top of the sink.. The valve is right below the sink and easy to turn off.

[Cheechako]

The solution is pretty simple if you don't have a severe problem:
Threaded "hold tite" stopper.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

The solution is pretty simple if you don't have a severe problem:
Threaded "hold tite" stopper.

We don't have that type of sink drain.

When we redo the galley we are going to use a smaller sink with one bin and this type of screw-in solution. The sink we have now is huge!

but...I don't mind closing the seacock. Wasn't sure if everyone always closed their sink seacock... after all does everyone do their wash on deck or in buckets? What's the point of having a sink at all then?

I actually looked up the ABYC rules. I wish some people would actually read them before spouting off what they WISH they said vs. what they do say. Our seacocks are 100% modern ABYC compliant. I double checked with my insurance. The fact that Cabo Rico was producing boats in 1980 that meet the ABYC standards 35 years later says a lot about the build quality.

There is NO guidance that indicates that you cannot put seacocks in a locker that is stuffed full of stuff. That is what the locker is for! What the guidance says is that the seacock needs to be accessible AS INSTALLED without having to unscrew cabinets, covers, whatever, or have it behind a glassed in area etc.

Apparently this was a problem in the past.

It takes me two or three minutes to unload the locker to get to my seacocks. Moving the seacock is not necessary.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

BTW- If you use a bronze flapper check valve, it needs to be mounted horizontally or it wont check!!

Thanks--you're bringing up my nightmares about it--level spot without a huge column of water between that spot and the outlet ! I won't highjack the sink thread with more bilge pump discussion. When I'm more in the mood to deal with it, I'll start a thread on it.

[GordMay]

Four reasons to avoid check valves on bilge pump systems:

The pump may have some air in it when it shuts off and the check valve closes. The pump can become air locked the next time you want it to run. "Air lock" means that there is air trapped in the pump below bilge water level keeping the impeller from getting traction on the water. Centrifugal pumps are not self priming, meaning they must have water at the impeller to start pumping. An air lock can last long enough to sink your boat (presumably any way), and it does not develop every time. One solution is to drill a small hole in the hose below the check valve. This will eliminate the airlock until the hole gets plugged up with lint. In the mean time, it will also squirt a thin stream of water across your bilge which can be unnerving the first time you see it. The new solid-state augmented float switches extend the pump run time after they actually trip off. This gets the pump trying to suck air at the end of it's cycle and increases the possibility of airlock with a check valve in the system.

The second problem with check valves is that you can trap so much water weight above the valve with a high head that the pump can't open the check valve from a standing start. Centrifugal pumps do not like to be stalled out. With the inevitable air cushion below the check valve, the pump sees a gradually increasing back pressure culminating in complete blockage, The check valve can stick shut a little too. The pump may not develop enough static pressure to open the check valve. The inertia of the water moving through the discharge pipe aids the pumping action, if you think about it. An operating pump is a dynamic system with water moving through it. If you stop the water from flowing, you have changed the system conditions enough that water may not always start flowing again. Bilge pumps are puny little things and do not always tolerate unusual conditions.

The third problem with check valves is they leak. The leakage increases as they age. This means that the check valve you installed to stop your little oscillating pump system now just oscillates with a longer period as the water drains back to the bilge at a slower rate. If the pump only runs every 15 minutes this may be tolerable.

The fourth problem with check valves is that they inhibit a good thing. All that water rushing back down the discharge pipe backflushes the debris screen(s) at the intake to the pump. Mostly these screens do not get clogged and this is why.

[Terra Nova]

GM--good post.

[Schooner Chandlery]

GordMay -- all the reasons we don't have a check valve very nicely stated, thank you. The continued crawl into the battery compartment, close the thruhull, turn off the breaker for that bilge pump when seas are coming from port side sees no end for us. I can just be glad that we have another high capacity bilge pump that exits to the starboard side and happens to have a higher above wateline vented loop. We have on occasion had to close the starboard one (and open up the port one) but it is more rare.

Even the bilge pump with port side vented loop is sufficiently higher above the waterline than many (or most?) folks bilge pumps have on their boats. I do have to wonder how many folks get water into the vessel during rough seas via bilge pump outlet and never know about it. We have such fidelity on the bilge water monitoring system that we see it instantly.

Fair winds.

[Steadman Uhlich]

To GordMay,

You always clearly answer the questions I have in mind.

Thanks!

[HopCar]

Gord, thank you for that post. I always knew I didn't like check valves in a bilge discharge. Now I have several reasons why I don't like them.


I'm a believer in very small primary pumps to prevent cycling from run back. I know one fellow who had a very small space to pump and he got cycling from the standard 3/4" discharge hose on the smallest pump. He just adapted it down to 3/8" hose and the cycling went away.