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Old 08-08-2015, 16:47   #46
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

CarinaPDX did as we did -- vented loop and pump out the drain. That works well and, as long as the seacocks are accessable, all is good.

Related to this topic is a problem we have with our primary bilge pump seacock. We have two bilge pumps near each other under the engine (lowest part of the bilge) one drains to port, the other to starboard. Both drain at the waterline level of the hull. It is not kosher ABYC to have a check valve in the exit from the bilge pump. So neither do. Instead we have vented loops to help prevent back flow of water via the bilge pump lines. Unfortunately, in a rough seaway, with seas coming from the port side, we can get huge water come in via the bilge pump exit. We end up having to close the thru-hull for that pump when we go to sea. Just when you want all your bilge pumps ready go to, we can't. Or--we must put a no-no (not ABYC sanctioned) check valve in the line. Which to do? At present, we just close the seacock, but we do know that should things get really crazy, we'd have a bit of a time getting to the seacock to open it -- you have to fold back a full-size mattress, jam a stick in place to keep it from falling back down on top of you, remove an access panel, lower yourself down 4 feet into a ( large and fairly empty so lots of room for you) battery compartment where you go outboard for a little climb to reach the thru hull and turn it on.

This primary bilge pump draining to port has a vented loop that is above the waterline about 24" and about 3ft outboard of centerline--a hose attached to the vented loop goes up into the highest level of the cabin against the overhead. The secondary draining to starboard with a vented loop that is against the overhead (so...5 ft or so above waterline) and about 5 ft outboard of the centerline. Port tends to flood, starboard not. We have no way of moving the vented loop further inboard nor raising up the vented loop on the port draining bilge pump, nor do we really want to because we lose GPM capacity by having a vented loop so high as we have it on startboard side.

Opinions -- would you just just forget about ABYC and go ahead and install the flapper style check valve in the one that feeds to port? Keep doing as we do -- close that bilge pump thru hull and turn off the switch when expecting to be in a rough seaway? It's become pretty standard for us to just close it but we don't like doing that.
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Old 08-08-2015, 16:55   #47
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

Would a shallower sink solve much of the problem?
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Old 08-08-2015, 16:58   #48
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

If it were me I would add a check valve in the upward section of bilge hose (on the downward side the flapper might not close). Consider that manual bilge pumps have 2 check valves already, and many electrical bilge pumps are mounted above the bilge and use a "foot valve" (AKA check valve) in the strainer pickup. The problem is when the check valve is used instead of a loop - then you are betting everything on the check valve. [Edit: given what would happen if the check valve failed in the situation you described, you should be ready to close that seacock. And you should have a bilge alarm to warn you when things are going pear-shaped.]

ABYC is really a guide; it is not legally required, and more to the point cannot anticipate every situation. So when there is a good case to deviate, and you understand the implications of that choice, don't be too reluctant. You are the one at risk in the middle of the ocean, so do the best for yourself.

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Old 08-08-2015, 16:58   #49
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

If I had my way every seacock would be in a sea chest, those needing to below the waterline,. Probably not practical for most considering space. Thread drift but food for thought, Only suction need be.
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Old 08-08-2015, 19:00   #50
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboss View Post
...
To categorize the boat as being unsafe would not only contradict the designs of just about every renowned designer of traditional blue water sailboats...
They didn't make your boat unsafe--you did!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Well, it's your boat and you have to live with it. I'm not sure what the 'high latitude' comment has to do with it, but then I guess I live in a low latitude area, so not familiar with the Middle latitudes. But those suggesting your boat is not safe I'd suggest have a point you should listen too. Whether you have made the boat unsafe from over loading or through a design flaw I'm not certain from what your saying. But your claim that there are many designs out there where manufacturers 'design' a boat with a seacock in a hard to get at place I just struggle to believe. For a start every manufacturer seeks to reach a basic survey requirement so that their prospective owners can place a boat in survey and what your suggesting would immediately rule out that proposition. For example, that means those manufacturers boats can never be used for hire.

It would also rule out any ability for that model of boat to be used in any catagory of racing (1-6) as an easily accessible seacock with an emergency plug is required for ALL. Even inshore racing. It's a very basic safety requirement and your boat seems to contradict that and your claiming manufacturers deliberately build new boats like that? Well, I doubt it. But I don't have the technical knowledge to be certain.

My boat has a centre line sink and it still gurgles in heavy seas and in really heavy seas I need to turn the seacock off or salt water is splashed lightly but annoyingly over the sink. It never fills the sink as it continuously empties. The plug won't remain in when this happens. But, when we are in seas like this I can't recall any time I needed to use the sink anyway. So the solution for me is to just turn it off whilst underway.

A picture of where your problem is might assist. Otherwise the easiest solution is to put a valve directly under the sink. But this doesn't fix the safety issue I suspect you have. peace now.
Very good post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
...we can get huge water come in via the bilge pump exit...
You have an unsafe bilge pump installation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
...
ABYC is really a guide; it is not legally required, and more to the point cannot anticipate every situation. So when there is a good case to deviate, and you understand the implications of that choice, don't be too reluctant. You are the one at risk in the middle of the ocean, so do the best for yourself.

Greg
This is simply very bad advice. Every skipper is also responsible for the safety of each of his crew. And he is responsible for any unsafe condition that he causes or condones.

Just a guide? Yes, for minimum safety standards.

NO check valves!
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Old 08-08-2015, 20:00   #51
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

TN-We've had this argument before, so I won't revisit it generally. I only note that adding a check valve doesn't make the existing installation less safe; rather it is an incremental improvement. It would be better to re-route the hoses to outlets that are always above the water, if possible. While I never had a problem with water coming back through my bilge exhausts, I did move the outlets higher in order to reduce the back pressure under way and remove any chance of problems. I am considering doing the same for the galley sink even though there is no problem there either. Improving safety is an ongoing process. Adding a check valve is a small part of that.

Greg
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Old 08-08-2015, 20:04   #52
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
...adding a check valve doesn't make the existing installation less safe...
It absolutely makes the system less safe as they present a huge restriction, reducing flow, and are prone to clogging and jamming.
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Old 08-08-2015, 20:05   #53
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

I always hate literalist interpretations of any religious book.

Simply from the number of respondents in this thread it is clear that this, and similar issues, are all too common. It is also clear that many folks have come up with various solutions.

I for one am sick of insurance surveyors coming around and inventing or stupidly interpreting ABYC rules.

If ABYC actually the literal word of God then presumably it would never ever need to be updated or changed. I've sat in far too many code disagreements in my own industry to not have serious doubts about some of the rules. I'll bet ABYC Is no different.

I've had surveyors miss massive amounts of stuff when they surveyed. Not ABYC rules, but stuff important to a buyer. It's a simple case of being rule driven, not using your head and applying common sense. :

Not all surveyors, just too many.
..............................

Enough! The more I read this thread the more I like the boats we have. Would I change some things if I could? Sure, I would really like a sea chest and eliminate as many through hulls as possible. But it ain't gonna happen. I just replaced all but one of my through hulls and can operate 4 of the 6 with out any obstruction, the other two are readily available. The last one is for the engine and is under a floor board, that's the toughest, no biggie.

Good luck Zboss. I'd put in an inline valve under the sink. Forespar makes a 1 1/2" y that you can use to split the sink drains.
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Old 08-08-2015, 20:24   #54
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

The bottom line is that you need to be able to immediately close any open sea cocks, in an emergency. And the boat should not take on water under any conditions, rough or not.

If you have sea cocks in inaccessible areas, make them accessible! It is usually possible to install a large deck plate, cabinet door, floor hatch or other means of access. Blank off any inaccessible sea cocks and relocate if necessary.
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Old 08-08-2015, 21:45   #55
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

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The bottom line is that you need to be able to immediately close any open sea cocks, in an emergency. And the boat should not take on water under any conditions, rough or not.

If you have sea cocks in inaccessible areas, make them accessible! It is usually possible to install a large deck plate, cabinet door, floor hatch or other means of access. Blank off any inaccessible sea cocks and relocate if necessary.
Something we can agree upon. And inaccessible valves have a tendency to not get used, which results in a surprisingly large number of valves frozen open. Valves need to be turned occasionally just to keep them from seizing, and if that is difficult to do it won't get done.

Greg
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Old 08-08-2015, 23:07   #56
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

I did not have a sink filling problem but the glugging sounds at anchor (through hull was too close to water line) were annoying enough that I removed the through hull and welded the opening shut - permanently.

Sink now drains into this 7 gallon jug. This primitive system was born out of frustration but having used it now for a couple seasons of recreational use, I can give it a solid recommendation.

Pro's:

-No more sea-cock to break, operate or maintain. = Safe
-Reliable. Little chance of malfunction (just do not drop the jug overboard when draining).
-Sink can be used anytime on either tack.
-By counting jug dumps, one can monitor fresh water consumption (as long as salt water is not also used in same sink).
-Jug can act as a holding tank (for me, its good for a couple days) thus giving the ability to not contaminate a sensitive harbor with grey water.

Con's:

-If living aboard, daily jug draining might become tedious (then again, I find the opening and closing of barely reachable sea cocks to be tedious).
-Forgetting to drain jug is a bit messy
-Jug occupies valuable storage space.

Steve

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Old 08-08-2015, 23:10   #57
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

Our boat has a vented loop and gulper pump on the galley sink.
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Old 08-08-2015, 23:23   #58
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

My first design was a small tank (~2 gal) below the sink which I could pump out at my convenience. A little time in the tropics changed that - it started to stink and without a cleanout there was little that could be done. It's best to just pump it out as it drains.

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Old 08-08-2015, 23:47   #59
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

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One way to overcome the issue of drains close or below the waterline (when heeled) and hard access seacocks is collect drains into a midship sump and pump it out throw transom or any other easily accessible place..
+1 This is how my boat is plumbed, sink, hand basin and shower all drain into a small sump with a filter screen and fitted with a rule pump and float switch plumbed via a vented loop well above waterline thence to the seacock below waterline.
It works well, doesn't hold much volume and saves any hassles.
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Old 08-08-2015, 23:55   #60
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Re: Galley Sink Fills With Water

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+1 This is how my boat is plumbed, sink, hand basin and shower all drain into a small sump with a filter screen and fitted with a rule pump and float switch plumbed via a vented loop well above waterline thence to the seacock below waterline.
It works well, doesn't hold much volume and saves any hassles.
Regarding the galley sink... The sink itself becomes the sump, just install a gulper pump below it directly plumbed to a vented loop and existing through hull. Simple and works well. When you see water in the sink, just hit the gulper switch.
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