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Old 12-11-2013, 08:36   #16
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

Hi Richard - no, Frigoboat did not say where the wax could have come from. After the non-success of this procedure Frigoboat did say that it appears there could be moisture in the system.

Maintenance History: None - The boat was manufactured by Jeanneau in France in 2004 and no one has touched the freezer or refrigeration units since.

The Frigoboat system has never been run with the boat out of the water and the boat has never been in tropical waters. As stated at the outset of this thread. This problem started near the end of our boating season - right after divers finished cleaning the bottom. The freezer had been running perfectly for years and we had just come back from a three month cruise in the Cape Cod area where the freezer had been run almost non-stop with no issues. I agree that it makes no sense that there would be wax or moisture in the system - especially after a successful three month run unless the compressor failed or the diver damaged the keel cooler.

Tim R: We also have a filter-drier on the system - at least that's what I think the test tube looking device at the output side of the cold plates is. We tried the hair drier approach five times - we'd hear some gurgling, see some frost for a few minutes, then the gurgling would stop and frost would disappear. Can't try the hot rag procedure now since the boat's been winterized.

Skip: Thanks for your input and for taking the time to share your experience.

I'll update this thread at the plot develops.

Jeff
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Old 13-11-2013, 17:27   #17
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

Jeff, Because no one has tampered with refrigerant and Frigoboat keel cooler systems have a history of line connector leaks I would first suspect a loss of refrigerant. Low on refrigerant, moisture in system, and contamination causing refrigerant flow problems all can display the same symptoms:
1. Normal operating amperage will be low.
2. Lack of frost on evaporatorís total surface area.
3. Tapping or heating line may increase refrigerant flow

Low On Refrigerant: If adding ONLY 3 ounce of 134a refrigerant and this does not increase amperage and surface area of evaporator frost cover there maybe moisture in system. If adding refrigerant till normal amperage is stabilized and correct superheat is maintained performance can be correct with refrigerant. This process is still not complete if original leak is not found and corrected.

Moisture: is again a problem on this Frigoboat system do to location and temperature of desiccant in filter dryer. Moisture in refrigerant on this system is easy to identify but extremely difficult to remove. Poor performance when moisture reaches the flow control orifice (Capillary Tube) is caused by temporary ice formation blocking refrigerant flow and several seconds later refrigerant start flowing again. This repeating freeze and thawing of cap tube orifice will regulate surface temperature of evaporator plate to just above freezing. Another confirmation of cap tube icing is no frost on plate only cold condensation and refrigerant hissing sound stops inside box each time ice blocks tube.

Blockage: After eliminating checks for Low on refrigerant and Moisture in system: Defining blockage of refrigerant flow caused by system malfunctions is an almost impossible problem, that Frigoboat has not as yet been able to solve inexpensively.

The original cause of keel cooler refrigerant flow blockages was blamed on solids that were too large to pass through flow control orifice. You would think the screen inside compressor that protects reed valves would have captured objects from inside compressor. With no filter or screen protecting cap tube orifice any solid material would have to of come from high pressure line to evaporator cap tube or from keel cooler itself. Frigoboatís first procedural solution was to tap this solid blockage back into line before orifice and replace evaporator assembly when possible.
The next fix was to solder in a filter where it should have been in the first place to protect cap tube orifice. The item you see at evaporator is not a filter Dryer.

Now there is a new generation of flow control theories dealing with sludge and what is causing this thick substance in the first place, Moisture, other contaminates from tampering with refrigerant, or lack of compressor cooling? In any case if sludge is the cause is what you are stuck with the best decision is to replace complete system.

Hopefully Jeff your refrigerator is just low on refrigerant but if it turns out to be refrigerant flow blockage other than moisture set yourself a limit to what you will pay a Frigoboat repairman to correct problem. I do not think you will find a repairman who will guarantee to permanently cure a sludged up system for a reasonable flat rate.
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Old 20-11-2013, 17:23   #18
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

Update:

Well, the boat was pulled and I inspected the keel cooler. As predicted by the experts on this forum there was nothing wrong with it. No damage of any kind.

So now I'm left with a quandrary on what to do next. At $100/hour it is almost pointless to spend any time troubleshooting the Frigoboat system - especially now that there's no water to cool the keel cooler since marina has shut off the water now that the nights are freezing. Somehow moisture or some kind of crap got into the system and it's likely trashed. It's almost impossible to understand how that could happen.

( I also suspected low voltage from a bad connection but I understand the compressor just won't run if the voltage is low and it is running)

So now I'm leaning towards replacing the whole thing - correct me if I'm wrong but I see no point in installing a keel cooler system again unless I own a Travel Lift or enjoy paying for haulouts. A air-cooled system should do the job nicely and not require the boat to be out of the water for the install.

I'm calling Jeanneau tomorrow to find out how to gain access to the back of the freezer without ripping the boat apart.

Jeff
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Old 21-11-2013, 08:50   #19
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

SO49, Unfortunately you own an unfriendly refrigeration system that is very difficult with expensive and time consuming refrigerant repair if compressor runs but it will not cool. If compressor does not run it is most likely a simple Do It Yourself project anyone can correct or repair. I still believe I would add 3 ounces of correct pure refrigerant with no additives into system and test for leaks without running compressor. The best test once sure there is refrigerant pressure in system would be to use a 50/50% mix of liquid dishwashing soap and water applied with a one inch brush. Apply mixture with a one inch paint brush agitating it with tips of brush to create shaving cream like foam. First leak test each of the 4 refrigerant line connecters then test keel cooler inside boat where copper lines come out of cooler. Another common leak area is a bad seal inside refrigerant servicing cap.

If no leaks are found and compressor will still start up it can be run for several minutes while boat is out of the water without overheating compressor. If by adding refrigerant compressor will not run then remove a small amount. When compressor starts running there will be no evaporator cooling for ten minutes then a small area around where refrigerant enterers evaportor will start to cool you can continue to run compressor as long as you can hold your hand on its top without uncomfortable heat.

The above tests will not rule out keel cooler systemís major refrigerant problems unless a leak was and is your original problem.
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Old 21-11-2013, 09:53   #20
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

Hi Richard - I appreciate your time and effort in helping with this matter. I have a couple of questions:

1. Any idea whether this system has a refrigerant servicing cap or will a line need to be cut and a servicing cap installed. I remember reading from Skip's story that one needed to installed.

2. I just had my car's air conditionering system recharged. The mechanic first tested whether the system held a vacuum. This test lasted 45 minutes - the vacuum held - and the mechanic opinied that there were no leaks. Seems like a good test. Is it practical with the Frigoboat system? He also added refrigerant with a dye so that leaks would show up under UV light - sounds good also.

I'll see if I can locate a marine refrigeration expert in Haverstraw, NY where the boat is.

Thanks, Jeff
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Old 21-11-2013, 12:11   #21
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

SO49,
  • There is a line coming out near top of compressor that has a cap on it this is the servicing port. Under this cap you will see a valve core much like a car tire. The seal inside cap prevents refrigerant leaks not the valve core alone.
  • A vacuum pump is not as good as high pressure, most technicians use 200 psi or less of dry nitrogen with a small amount of refrigerant for electronic leak testing. If all of atmospheric pressure could be removed that would be only 14.7 psi. I try to recommend a much less expensive approach as I mentioned before. Because Frigoboat line connecters have replaceable O ring seals known to leak, test these first and avoid the expensive vacuuming and re-servicing with refrigerant. Three ounces of 134a refrigerant will produce 50 to 60 psi of pressure in that system on a 75 degree F day and less as temperature drops. We know that keel cooler systems have had problems with refrigerant flow so I recommend no additives of any kind like florescent dyes. Another problem with a dye is system needs to be run for several hours to detect a leak area.
To go back to the beginning troubleshooting is the process of elimination which in this case is:
a. There enough refrigerant in system if not where did it leak out? Repair cost $50 to $500
b. Is there moisture in system that can be removed with a vacuum pump? Repair costs $300 to $500
c. Is this unit developing Refrigerant flow restriction problems not related to moisture freezing in flow control capillary tube orifice? Cost to repair $500 to $2,000
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Old 21-11-2013, 13:20   #22
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

Quote:
Originally Posted by SO49 View Post
Hi Richard - I appreciate your time and effort in helping with this matter. I have a couple of questions:

1. Any idea whether this system has a refrigerant servicing cap or will a line need to be cut and a servicing cap installed. I remember reading from Skip's story that one needed to installed.

2(clip).

I'll see if I can locate a marine refrigeration expert in Haverstraw, NY where the boat is.

Thanks, Jeff
Hi, Jeff,

I don't know where I may have said that a valve needed installation, but mine had the service valve (at the end of a stalk coming out of the compressor) on the left top of the compressor. The hi pressure port was right before the hi pressure joint, soldered to the output line on the compressor.

If you're uncomfortable doing these tests, certainly you can use a pro - that's what I did when Frigoboat Info ran out of ideas. He shipped my pro a cap tube filter, which DID have to be cut into the line and welded, and a filter dryer. The cap tube filter identifies itself as a filter-drier, too, and as the quick-fit filter was to be installed right behind it, it seems they're just in series, and merely amplifying each other. On the other hand, what I don't know about refrigeration theory is substantial!

However, back to the story, if all you will be doing is adding refrigerant, it's not very expensive to equip yourself to do that - or, as I did, you could invest not much more in a set of gauges, and get a clearer picture of what's happening.

And, if you think you might be in such a position again, and had the space for it (not very big - I leave ours in the box where I stow it, and that's about6x9x18 inches), a vacuum pump is cheap at Harbor Freight. I'm carrying one not only because if I needed it once, I might need it again, other cruisers I meet might well need to borrow it, as has been the case with many of the the infrequently-used-variety of tools I carry with me.

Diagnosis is the challenge for whether you want to toss this system. Eventually (see the smoking gun post), we were able to confirm mine for tossing.

I'm here to tell you that I'd have far rather have found a solution to my issue(s?), because the new installation - which I'm sure will get dialed in eventually - at close to 4 boat bux, STILL isn't cooling to the level of my Frigoboat, while it is freezing and chilling the refrigerator side.

So, I'd still do what I did, again, and chase problems as far as they can be run down with Rob (Frigoboat Info) before giving up.

I'm sure you've heard it from FI, but do NOT let any tech put anything other than straight (no dye, leak stop or any other additive) R134a into your system, unless it's nitrogen to flush. The cap tube system is so small it will not like anything else.

Good luck on your resolution. When I finally get to editing some of the thousand or so pix I've had during this shakedown, I'll put up the entire story of our reefer in pix.

L8R

Skip
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Old 21-11-2013, 13:58   #23
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

Just installed a new Frigoboat keel-cooler system and it worked great, knocking down the freezer comp. to 12 F and spill over fridge comp. to 40 F. It ran perfect about 100 hours and we shut it down for a 2 week trip. On return last week, comp. ran but no cooling on evap. plate. Install rep checked and found keel cooler leaking, big time. Dove under the boat to check and looks rotten and corroded. Having electrolysis expert check it out tomorrow, and hauling afterwards for replacement keel cooler. This time, will NOT ground to boat per install instructions. Rather, new unit has sacrificial zincs built in. Hope this works after all the time and money expended, and we'll see how Frigoboat backs up their warranty.
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Old 21-11-2013, 20:45   #24
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

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Just installed a new Frigoboat keel-cooler system and it worked great, knocking down the freezer comp. to 12 F and spill over fridge comp. to 40 F. It ran perfect about 100 hours and we shut it down for a 2 week trip. On return last week, comp. ran but no cooling on evap. plate. Install rep checked and found keel cooler leaking, big time. Dove under the boat to check and looks rotten and corroded. Having electrolysis expert check it out tomorrow, and hauling afterwards for replacement keel cooler. This time, will NOT ground to boat per install instructions. Rather, new unit has sacrificial zincs built in. Hope this works after all the time and money expended, and we'll see how Frigoboat backs up their warranty.
Great Scott...why would anyone want a system that requires the owner to haul a boat to install and/or replace or repair a portion of it when there are so many other good quality air cooled unit on the market. Call me crazy but this sounds like madness to me?
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Old 22-11-2013, 05:35   #25
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

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Great Scott...why would anyone want a system that requires the owner to haul a boat to install and/or replace or repair a portion of it when there are so many other good quality air cooled unit on the market. Call me crazy but this sounds like madness to me?
Hi, Rich,

Because the keel cooler doesn't require any energy, and in most cases, the ambient temp is lower in the water than in the boat, being more efficient, and, in most cases, it's set it and forget it. Think of it as a through hull which never lets any water through; through hulls require infrequent replacement or repair/attention, too, but you don't hear lamentations about how it's such a burden to haul to deal with them

Water being a better carrier of heat, too, it's more efficient (thus the small package) and, of course, it doesn't contribute heat to what might be an already hot boat.

In my new system (not Frigoboat), in fact, I had to duct out my (air-cooled) heat for greatest efficiency. Fortunately, I already had that ductwork and exit, from dealing with what I had thought, at the time, was a hot alternator environment. Conveniently, the fan (which I'd been using for general engine room heat extraction after the alternator situation had been cured) had died a few days earlier, so I was left with a connected duct in the right place to attach to the new (closed) box.

If there were one thing that I think Frigoboat could do better on a design level, it would be to make their air-cooled units boxed as my (new) Sea Frost unit is. With all the cooling air going over the compressor (as seen in my prior posts where I had just their air-cooled system fan blowing on it), the compressor temps will be dramatically lower. Their water-cooled units (keel cooler) have (well, did; current versions might have something more robust) only a small heat sink and fan, similar to what you might find on a CPU. A larger heat sink, and a larger fan, might well do what's needed in the compressor cooling department.

And, then, too, there's the issue of a sufficiently sized filter-dryer, located sufficiently distant from the compressor to assure that liquid doesn't vaporize; they sell them, but it - and the other cap tube filter which was, after all that, a more conventionally (fat-round-short) shaped filter than the one which goes in line (more like a slightly larger version of what's on the end of the compressor and evaporator plate). The addition of those to the system before installation might have saved my system. I'll never know. But my current system has an accumulator-filter-dryer which is close to the size of a pringles can (larger than a soda can), and has in-out lines at the top, similar to a whole-house water filter. That's some serious capacity as compared to the combined volume of even every possible (singular) addition from Frigoboat. And that's on a system which has 1/4" as its smallest line (far less likely to choke than the tiny capillary line). There's got to be a reason they include that in their system - and every residential AC system you see likely has an in-line filter, too, looking like a shortened soda can in size, probably with some form of screw-on connector for the in-line makeup, even though their tubing is similarly much larger than the Frigoboat cap tubes.

So, I say again: If you're considering buying a Frigoboat Keel-cooled system, do yourself a favor and include their filter-dryer in your parts list (same quick-connects as in the rest of their system).

As to corrosion/galvanic loss, the instructions say to bond to the negative battery terminal. If your through-hulls are bonded together, too, and that happened to the keel cooler, I'd be very worried about the through-hulls as well.

There's a large discussion about zincs on the keel cooler; we had none, but our through-hulls weren't bonded, and never had any indication of galvanic loss (in either the keel cooler or the through hulls). AND, it continued to work perfectly after our wreck. You can see pix of what that area (and, since I don't recall, only maybe see the keel cooler in close-up), wherein our keel cooler banged some 3-5000 times on a limestone shelf, in heavy surf and shrugged it off (it worked perfectly for the next 5 years or so). These guys are stout!

Good luck with the replacement. I have to say that Frigoboat Info has gone to what I'd consider extreme lengths, at no cost to me, to help me solve my problem; I expect you'll have a favorable outcome. But do be sure to take advantage of Rob (Frigoboat Info) and his information regarding prevention of the same thing in the future...

L8R

Skip (click the gallery and go to the picture of the wreck if you want the pix of that - and, for that matter, how we fixed it and went sailing again)
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Old 25-11-2013, 14:57   #26
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

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Hi, Rich,

Because the keel cooler doesn't require any energy, and in most cases, the ambient temp is lower in the water than in the boat, being more efficient, and, in most cases, it's set it and forget it.
hmmm...then why is it every time I come to visit the CF website there is someone with a Keel Cooler trying to fix his problems...na...sorry skip efficient also means efficient to run AND maintain. Adding sea water to a system that if designed right can be done simply with AIR is just adding complexity and trouble in my Bozo Opinion. After spending 4 years in the Sea of Cortez I can tell you that relying on a water cooled refrigeration system is bad news just from an energy and efficiency standpoint, even before we deal with the maintenance issues.
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Old 15-01-2014, 09:54   #27
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

Hi Richard/Skip:

I'd like to try the approach of adding 3oz of refrigerant to the system. Unfortunately there are no competent refrigeration techs in the Haverstraw Marina area where my boat is currently on the hard. Can you guys please explain what I need to get at Harbor Freight in order to proceed. My only other alternative is to splash the boat in the Spring, take it to Long Island and haul it again there. This way if there's a leak we may be able to find it. Thanks

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Old 15-01-2014, 10:10   #28
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

Love our Frigiboat system! Last year after problems starting up after a shut down had a technician install a dryer-filter which he said was not uncommon to need, he charged $60. We used to have a Cool Blue on our last boat that worked pretty well but used too much amps in the tropics. When we restart our system after a shutdown of some time we always had a bag of ice to the freezer. I have absolutely no problem with the keel cooler idea, makes sense to me. If you do a search you will find the same people here on CF have a bias (commercially?) toward Frigiboat but most of us are quite happy with it
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Old 16-01-2014, 18:42   #29
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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
hmmm...then why is it every time I come to visit the CF website there is someone with a Keel Cooler trying to fix his problems...na...sorry skip efficient also means efficient to run AND maintain. Adding sea water to a system that if designed right can be done simply with AIR is just adding complexity and trouble in my Bozo Opinion. After spending 4 years in the Sea of Cortez I can tell you that relying on a water cooled refrigeration system is bad news just from an energy and efficiency standpoint, even before we deal with the maintenance issues.
Water cooled and keel cooled are two different systems. A Keel-cooled system is a step up from a water-cooled system because the condenser is outside of the vessel, instead of pumping water into the boat and then back over the side. The compressor circulates the refrigerant gas and the heat is removed through the thru-hull fitting. Which one are you criticizing? We cruise northern latitudes where the water is significantly colder than the air which makes a keel cooled system better IMO.

In the last 4 years we have had one issue(that was not caused by our ignorance) with our system and it was because one of the fittings came loose from engine vibration. This also would have happened on an air cooled system.
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Old 16-01-2014, 19:11   #30
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Re: Frigoboat Expert in Haverstraw, NY - Keel Cooler Damaged

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Great Scott...why would anyone want a system that requires the owner to haul a boat to install and/or replace or repair a portion of it when there are so many other good quality air cooled unit on the market. Call me crazy but this sounds like madness to me?
Would you be willing to recommend a couple of the air cooled units you are referring to?
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