Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-07-2014, 06:44   #1
Registered User
 
skipgundlach's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Currently on the boat, somewhere on the ocean, living the dream
Boat: Morgan 461 S/Y Flying Pig
Posts: 1,385
Send a message via Skype™ to skipgundlach
Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

I'll leave the original below for reference, as it's an old thread. It's so
old you might want to skip down to the attribute-marks section ([ ">" in
front of each line] to get a basis point, or if you'd not seen it, to get a
clue; the masochists will read the entire referenced thread in CF) before
reading further. It covers my removal of a previously very satisfactory Frigoboat system and replacement with a Sea Frost air and water cooled system...

So, in the end, there were 3 11x16 SS clad evaporator plates, in series,
through a constant-pressure control (functioning like an expansion valve),
running through a large evaporator-dryer, with sight glass, to a BD85 air
and water cooled compressor, all from Sea Frost.

The BD85, of course, has a higher capacity than the 50 it replaced, but at a
large cost in electrons. Low speed (there's a controller similar to the SSC
of Frigoboat, with, perhaps, some more smarts, as I don't know the specs of
how Frigoboat's unit manages the speeds, but the specs look impressive)
pulls 6A, the same as high on the 50. Ergo, at low, it should be removing
as much heat as the previous system did at high (watts = amps = BTU
removed).

The Frigoboat system did an admirable job while it was working. I could
take it to an indicated 0 in the freezer (control used box temp), far
colder than I needed, and still have it not running at full speed once the
temp had been reached.

Unfortunately for me, including the addition of the water cooling (another
complexity made unnecessary by the keel cooler in my Frigoboat system) by my
installer, Clay Hansen of Hansen Marine in St. Augustine, the system still
isn't right. As the initial installation had several defective components
(two temperature probes and the constant pressure valve) Clay gave it some
serious tweaking for about a month, while we were off the boat, and declared
it fit. On Christmas Eve 2013, when it wasn't hot, ever, it was working,
and we headed south. But...

It's voracious for electrons, and even at low speed, runs about 80% of the
time to achieve a box temperature in the 10-15 range, controlled by plate
temperature, the probe being at the bottom of the last plate. The
refrigerator, as it's fed from a spillover fan, continues to maintain its
temperatures satisfactorily, but at the cost of the freezer continually
having to run. Sea Frost's computer, if you let it run it (automatic
setting), looks for a 52% run time. Without a great deal more than the 6.5
hysteresis recommended, there's no way possible to achieve that ratio on the
computer controlled version - and a higher gap would mean much more box temp
variation, something I'd become accustomed to not even thinking about, with
my previous (box temp) hysteresis of 2 - and to do so would be unacceptable
to me in any event.

Worse, after a decommissioning during a month-long trip ashore (I was on a
mooring and didn't dare leave it running), the third plate was only about
half frosted, with the compressor running non-stop, whereas before, it had
been complete, with the frost line ending an inch or so into the plate
before the return line to the constant pressure valve.

The Sea Frost owner, Cleave Horton, in my followups recently, had me fiddle
with the CPV, which resulted in an immediate frosting of not only the plate
but the return line (too much), and subsequent fiddlings have it back to
where it was, with the entire 3rd plate frosted, but the return line not
only very cold but almost frosted. Probably a pretty good place for it.

But that's with my having - at Cleave's strong suggestion - increased the
plate temp for shutoff by 2.5, to 5. So, I now have a warmer box, and
still about an 80% run time at low. I can jack up the speed and have it run
for shorter periods, but at a larger amp consumption. My expectation is that
running essentially full time, assuming the temp stays at the level you want
it to be (the function of the smart controller, rather than leaving it on a
given speed), is the most efficient. However, Cleave suggests leaving it at
low full time for the least amps used.

At that rate, based on no-wind nights, and next to nothing else on (2 0.1A
fans and breaker panel overhead), we're averaging 8 amps or higher just for
refrigeration - at night, when it's cooler. I can't support 200AH daily
loads, with added daytime (more heat, more stuff running, boxes being opened
occasionally) loads with my wind and solar unless conditions were absolutely
perfect - all bright sunny days and consistent winds of 15 or higher. The
amp draw is pretty consistent, whether on "automatic" - the equivalent of
the SSC in Frigoboat systems or "low"; we had one night of unexplainable 3A
average, and a couple of 12A average, but otherwise it's been in the 8A or
fractionally higher range overnight; this over more than 3 weeks of
observation.

After several emails back and forth, and several phone conversations, the
best Cleave could come up with was to play with the CPV, and "good luck" for
recommendations. This, despite his own manuals cautioning against lowering
the temps into the double-digit negative zone instead of merely to zero, was
accompanied by the assertion that 8 was way too cold, and that something
closer to the low to mid 20s was ample for freezing. Maybe if you're going
to rotate your stock on a daily basis, but that doesn't ring true for
anything resembling longer storage, let alone whether whatever it was you
wanted hard frozen would melt 5 minutes out of the freezer. As this system
cost, all-in, half more than the comparable (air cooled with keel cooler,
added filter-dryer and full wrap-around evaporator) Frigoboat system in
cost, this is most distressing.

Better yet, the metal screen filter in the water cooling installed (a Groco
WSB-500) started to disintegrate almost immediately, never mind its being
clogged and requiring frequent cleaning. So, for a small time, we ran it
without the water cooling. There was no chance. Temps in the freezer
remained in the mid to high 20s despite the system running full time.
Likely I'll replace the metal one with plastic, assuming I can source it
(how many times does a filter media fail?? - not much in the way of stocking
dealers), but it's just another annoyance. In the meantime, we're running
the pump, as we have a dome filter on the exterior, left over from when this
boat had air conditioning, and Cleave assures me that if it can't get
through that, the pump will happily move it along. Update since I drafted
this; I got new plastic filter media from Groco - a much larger mesh - and
sure enough, the flow improved greatly. Without the water cooling, our
system doesn't stand a chance in S. FL; it MIGHT be ok with air alone in
cold water and cool temps. However, here in Vero Beach, this last time we
took it off (only a few days' worth of running) to swap out the media, there
were 3 small barnacles on the housing. If those get into the cooling pipes,
we're dead. Obviously, whatever it is that barnacles start out as can fit
through the dome filter outside; I'm not sure that the plastic media is much
smaller. There isn't much dead time (no pump running) for these guys to get
a foothold, so I'm not optimistic. Does that mean I'll soon see a
degradation in my cooling water output even with a clear filter media???

I have no idea, at this point, whether the Carel thermostat I took out (his
electronic control has a Carel incorporated) was accurate, but I'd had it
set at 8 with a 2-degree hysteresis; it maintained it easily. This box
shows temps radically above that - the probe is near where the other was -
but shooting it with an infrared thermometer shows it to actually be about
10 at the spillover near the fan, and other temps much lower. E.g., bread
closest to the spillover 5, hamburger package top near the plate 0,
chicken package vertical to the plate -3, and so on, with all three plates
well under 0. So, regardless of the calibration, including that I've now
upped the plate shutoff to 6, it's pretty cold in there, and the reefer
does (a good thing; it's been cold enough in the past to do it solely by
convection) occasionally have to use the spillover fan. I have yet to put
ice cream in there, but I suspect it would be OK. But still, it's an energy
hog.

If there had been any way short of pulling the boat (for a new keel cooler)
and destroying the galley (to get a new evaporator into the freezer), I
think I would have been much happier with a Frigoboat keel and air cooled
(air for when on shore, per Rob, Frigoboat's distributor in the US)
evaporator system, but also to move more air over the compressor),
protected - by the addition of a filter-dryer - from years-away refrigerant
oil contamination, allowing the capillary tube system to do its work. As it
is, the solution seems to be that I MUST run our Honda genset, every day,
for a full tank, about another ~$150/month, to keep up with the load. It
wouldn't take very long before even ditching and replacing the system every
5 years or so, including the necessary haulout, would be more cost efficient
than what I have now - if it were possible to replace the evaporator without
having to start over in the galley.

Finally, to forestall questions about the box itself, it's 6" of extruded
polystyrene, encased in epoxy, with radiation and conduction barriers
outside (aluminum foil and doorskin furring strips to give an air gap).
Both doors are double-gasketed, and, after much fiddling, I'm confident that
the gaskets are efficient. The boxes are, respectively - 16.25"D, 24.5"H
and 14.75/28.5"W - 3.4 and 6.56 CF respectively.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at Web-Folio !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson
"Flying Pig" <skipgundlach@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:l5c6j3$sev$1@dont-email.me...
> Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)
>
>
> This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.
>
> This discussion (or the predecessor) began on this forum, here
> Another Frigoboat Cooling Problem.
> Folks weighed in, but Frigoboat Info took it offline with me, as the
> problem
> was to prove complex.
>
> In the end, we tried just about everything. FI sent me an air cooler, in
> case, somehow, the keel cooler was damaged by running it out of the water.
> We tried it in replacement of, and then in tandem with, the keel cooler.
> The issue got worse. I'll save you the gory details, other than that I
> had
> more than 1000 data points of time, pressures, plus high pressure
> connector,
> low pressure connector, compressor and box temps, over 3 months or so, and
> included 2 lengthy evacuations, the second of which was nearly 2 days, and
> recharges.
>
> Nothing worked. FI felt that adding a cap tube filter and a filter dryer
> to
> the system would resolve a symptom which was suggestive of something
> blocking the system, but which moved from time to time, allowing
> intermittent cooling. However, the cap tube filter involved cutting a
> line
> and doing some silver soldering, a task FI felt better reserved for a
> talented refrigeration professional. Given the finicky nature of the
> Frigoboat systems, due to their size, I felt that one who was specifically
> knowledgeable about Frigoboat - including perhaps my coming to Annapolis,
> for FI's team, would be best. FI recommended Clay Hansen, of Hansen
> Marine
> Services, we got to the dock literally down the driveway from his shop,
> and
> commenced.
>
> The first week's adventures can be seen in the thread linked above.
> Nothing
> we did changed matters, despite the rather extreme measures we tried. The
> case was tried, and the jury was out. This morning, the jury came in.
>
>
> I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
> just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
> acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
> several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
> included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
> evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
> followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
> problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
> nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
> repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.
>
> The oil used in BD compressors changes state if it gets too hot, per
> Clay's
> consultants, who have seen this happen many times, in older systems. It
> doesn't happen immediately, which is why it's nearly never seen in new
> systems. The first clue (which Clay observed as irregular, and pursued
> with
> his other pros) was that during the flush/nitrogen blow, a yellow oily
> liquid came out. It should have been clear, or perhaps slightly brown.
>
> That change of state results in the oil not remaining perfectly liquid. I
> don't know the chemistry, but the effect is that it clogs stuff up,
> particularly in really small orifices, such as, perhaps, the keel cooler
> (I
> don't know what the size is on the tubing in the keel cooler, but infer it
> must be pretty small to allow the lengths needed for cooling in that small
> package), and for sure, the capillary tube, which, if not the keel cooler,
> in our case, was for sure packed up (see above about attempts to remedy).
>
> Unfortunately, if absolutely all of the contaminated oil were not removed
> from the system, it will only happen again, later.
>
> The bottom line is to start over.
>
> If I had it to do over again, I'd not change anything other than to have
> something more effective than the very small heat sink and fan on the
> compressor, and make very damn sure the system was not run out of the
> water
> (or, perhaps, without an add-on air cooler, which VecoNA supplied for
> testing purposes - swapping for the keel cooler, or even in tandem didn't
> solve the problem).
>
> As I understand it, if the compressor is kept cool, this problem is
> unlikely
> to occur. If not, over time, it's nearly certain to occur. Whether or not
> the Frigoboat air-cooled system, as provided as a single unit, rather than
> as an add-on air cooler, would be sufficient to move the enough air over
> the
> compressor to avoid this in the future I can't say. But it's not a box
> system which completely encloses the compressor, channeling air, lessening
> the air flow effectiveness over the compressor, and so, as it was in the
> yard (or would be at anchor, too), with ambient temps close to, or perhaps
> exceeding 100F, that might prove problematic, eventually.
>
> At one point in my testing with the add-on air cooler, before I'd hooked
> it
> up, electrically or with refrigerant, I merely directed the air flow from
> the air cooler fan on the compressor, and temperatures dropped notably,
> even
> though the heat sink fan wasn't connected (I had to use those terminals
> for
> the air cooler fan). Perhaps severe ventilation would have been enoughto
> make my failure not happen - but I doubt it, as we had an AC bullet fan
> directed on the compressor during the time it was run out of the water, to
> no avail (or, at least, the problem occurred, anyway).
>
> All this presumes that I caused the problem by running it out of the
> water.
> I suppose it's possible that compressor temperatures, as we were in the
> tropics for a couple of years of the use of the system, and the
> compressor's
> in the engine room, could have reached that overheat condition without the
> added stress of running the keel cooler out of the water. We'll never
> know,
> as I don't care to attempt to duplicate the circumstances; once bitten,
> twice $hy, so to speak, and we'll be very different in our new
> installation.
>
> I have to say, however, that until I stuck my foot in it, the system was a
> real pleasure. But perhaps my egregious error can be avoided by others in
> the future. To be sure, while I didn't see the caution at the time,
> Frigoboat makes it clear you should not run the system out of the water
> without - at a minimum - having water running over the keel cooler.
> However, there was no mention of the actual consequences. For a techie
> (well, interested in everything, and moderately able to understand the
> physics and realities), that information would have been orders of
> magnitude
> more effective to me than "don't do this" - with its implication that it
> would simply be inefficient, rather than destructive. Stupidly, because
> it
> continued to work a treat, I did that for a time, as, all around it, we
> were
> epoxy fairing, grinding and all that sort of stuff at the time. It can't
> have helped, whatever the other instances of high temperatures for the
> compressor may have been.
>
> However, in the end, our choice for replacement is a Sea Frost air and
> water-cooled (like the air cooler is an option after the fact on Frigoboat
> Keel Cooler systems, this will allow, when the Keel Cooler is removed,
> installation of another thru-hull for water-cooling as backup or extremely
> hot circumstances) system. It solves a problem which would present to
> someone retrofitting cold plates and engine-driven systems, that of access
> in an already-built box. The evaporator plate which I got (see
> Pictures: Flying Pig Early Refit + Projects/Early_Major_Alterations_Work/03-05/Reefer
> and onward for what we did initially) couldn't possibly be inserted into
> our
> current box. Whether we have to cut it up to get it out remains to be
> seen.
>
> The Sea Frost system relies on two separate evaporator plates which will
> make it through our existing door opening, and are much deeper (courtesy
> of
> our depth of the box), allowing for the same surface area in a different
> configuration, and a different configuration than the troublesome
> capillary
> tube (Frigoboat's solution) to accomplish the superheat portion of the
> cycle. That they are also fully stainless steel is encouraging/reassuring,
> in that I can't be ham-handed enough during defrosting to damage them, as
> could be the case with the typical aluminum evaporator plate (and which
> was
> the reason I chose a SS-fronted plate to begin with, despite it being less
> efficient than straight aluminum).
>
> I have no reason to expect other than stellar results with our new system.
> And my experience should NOT be a reason not to buy a Frigoboat system -
> but
> it should be a heads-up as to how you treat it, if you do.
>
> L8R
>
> Skip
>
> Morgan 461 #2
> SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
> See our galleries at Web-Folio !
> Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
> and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog
>
> When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
> - Dr. Samuel Johnson
>
__________________

__________________
skipgundlach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 06:48   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

TLDR...
__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 06:58   #3
Registered User
 
tomfl's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 1,959
Images: 10
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

Is there some reason there are multiple threads started by the same guy on the exact same topic. We get it you had problems with your stuff and are not happy with the support.

So what.
__________________
tomfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 07:13   #4
Registered User
 
skipgundlach's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Currently on the boat, somewhere on the ocean, living the dream
Boat: Morgan 461 S/Y Flying Pig
Posts: 1,385
Send a message via Skype™ to skipgundlach
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

I believe you'll find that I started this thread, but that others were the originators of whatever other threads to which you refer.

When =I= was trying to figure out WTF was happening with my system, one or more of these (other) threads were some I participated in, including, as there were more than one, including info on each which was germane to the thread.

I did the same here. Unfortunately, they are all now in the same area on posts (like a bump, though that wasn't the intent; rather, it was to give those following those threads a notification of a new post, just as I learned of your complaint, here); that will change in a few hours.

Actually, the support was all I could have asked for, other than a successful conclusion. Frigoboat sent me the air cooler, the cap tube and drier filters at no charge, and referred me to a competent tech. And, if you bothered to read it, you'd see that if it weren't for the problem of getting a new evaporator into the system, I'd rather have had the same setup, with better filtration, that I had to remove.

Now that you know how evil I am, you can just skip over anything with my name on it; it will probably settle your stomach ☺
__________________
Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig, KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
skipgundlach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 07:15   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In boat fixing' season I'm in a Maryland boat yard too close to Washington, DC ... except when I escape to home on the beach in Florida!
Boat: Prout Snowgoose 34
Posts: 144
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

Skip,

It's all in the details ... wading into them, I picked up a couple of helpful hints and I imagine others might too if the topic is of interest to them.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
svtrio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 07:48   #6
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,726
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

A typical case of a knowledgeable boatowner who went to a lot of trouble and expense to make one system really outstanding, and got -- crappy performance. It is really frustrating; I've been through it a few times myself.

Reminds me of my VHF antenna installation which I spent a lot of time thinking about, designing to be really outstanding, and finally installing, and which then worked worse than the system it replaced. It took some time to discover that I had one bad coax connector.

Not being an expert in refrigeration, I can't offer any concrete advice, but can encourage you not to leave it as it is. My refrigeration (pure stock Isotherm SP separate fridge and freezer, part of original build and 14 years old by now) works tons better than that. There is clearly some major problem with that installation.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 08:03   #7
Registered User
 
skipgundlach's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Currently on the boat, somewhere on the ocean, living the dream
Boat: Morgan 461 S/Y Flying Pig
Posts: 1,385
Send a message via Skype™ to skipgundlach
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
A typical case of a knowledgeable boatowner who went to a lot of trouble and expense to make one system really outstanding, and got -- crappy performance. It is really frustrating; I've been through it a few times myself.

Reminds me of my VHF antenna installation which I spent a lot of time thinking about, designing to be really outstanding, and finally installing, and which then worked worse than the system it replaced. It took some time to discover that I had one bad coax connector.

Not being an expert in refrigeration, I can't offer any concrete advice, but can encourage you not to leave it as it is. My refrigeration (pure stock Isotherm SP separate fridge and freezer, part of original build and 14 years old by now) works tons better than that. There is clearly some major problem with that installation.
The vendor (Sea Frost) owner (Cleave Horton) and I have had many back-and-forths both email and phone. He claims that it's working properly (now that I apparently have the cpv sorted to the right pressure), and it's all a matter of watts of heat removed.

In any event, the compressor at low uses as much as my prior one at high; the air and water outputs are very warm (pulling heat out of the boxes).

Another poster in a different thread (haverstraw NY) claims 24AH a day with a "standard" box 1/3 less than mine. I don't see how it's possible, unless you're in cold weather and water, and even then, unlikely based on my experience.

That said, I think my power consumption is unreasonable, despite the system working well otherwise.
__________________
Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig, KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
skipgundlach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 08:09   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

If it helps for comparison, we use ~50Ahr/day on average, in the deep Caribbean, with one BD50 air cooled compressor running a single thin evaporator plate in a 4cf freezer with a spillover into a 6cf reefer.

The top loading boxes have 6" of polyurethane foam insulation all around and are not located adjacent to any hot machinery space.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 08:10   #9
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,726
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipgundlach View Post
The vendor (Sea Frost) owner (Cleave Horton) and I have had many back-and-forths both email and phone. He claims that it's working properly (now that I apparently have the cpv sorted to the right pressure), and it's all a matter of watts of heat removed.

In any event, the compressor at low uses as much as my prior one at high; the air and water outputs are very warm (pulling heat out of the boxes).

Another poster in a different thread (haverstraw NY) claims 24AH a day with a "standard" box 1/3 less than mine. I don't see how it's possible, unless you're in cold weather and water, and even then, unlikely based on my experience.

That said, I think my power consumption is unreasonable, despite the system working well otherwise.
It sounds to me like it's using an abnormal amount of power.

I have two separate compressors and evaporators running two separate boxes and use a lot less power than that; admittedly in cooler surroundings (water temp right now 17 degrees C). But I didn't get anywhere near 50% duty cycle even running my system out of the water (which Isotherm say you can do without any problems). I ran my system out of the water for several months during my refit last year and it performed normally and did not use as much power as you say.

One thing I did notice was that my freezer uses far more power than my fridge. Is it possible that the spillover from your freezer is not working properly, leading the compressor to run overtime?
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 08:17   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wherever the wind takes me
Boat: Bristol 41.1
Posts: 806
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

"Frigoboat catastrophic failure"

Not sure I understand. Isn't this a description of problems with a Seafrost system, not Frigoboat?
__________________
redsky49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 08:29   #11
Registered User
 
skipgundlach's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Currently on the boat, somewhere on the ocean, living the dream
Boat: Morgan 461 S/Y Flying Pig
Posts: 1,385
Send a message via Skype™ to skipgundlach
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
It sounds to me like it's using an abnormal amount of power.

I have two separate compressors and evaporators running two separate boxes and use a lot less power than that; admittedly in cooler surroundings (water temp right now 17 degrees C). But I didn't get anywhere near 50% duty cycle even running my system out of the water (which Isotherm say you can do without any problems). I ran my system out of the water for several months during my refit last year and it performed normally and did not use as much power as you say.

One thing I did notice was that my freezer uses far more power than my fridge. Is it possible that the spillover from your freezer is not working properly, leading the compressor to run overtime?
If you've looked at Richard Kollmann's book/website and/or Rparts and others, freezers always have a higher draw per space, as you're trying to make it very much colder.

The spillover works perfectly; in our early days, when the freezer was a couple of degrees colder, the spillover fan never ran other than hot-loading; indeed, it got too cold sometimes.

Now, it seems well balanced, with occasional (about one in three freezer cycles) fan-running temp balancing; when it does, the freezer ambient goes up notably. It's got the 2 hysteresis so it's pretty rigidly controlled. The freezer (plate sensor, not box temperature) has a 6.5 hysteresis.

At this particular moment, as a test, having run it on automatic for a week or so, but having cured (at least for the moment) the CPV setting so that the return line isn't frosted beyond - but includes - the plate, I put it back on low last night. Draw was the same, but (without being as anal about it as I was during all the testing) I've not seen it cycle off yet today. However, the reefer has cycled at least a couple of times (the only change being setting to "low" rather than "automatic" - which tries to make the cycles 52% of the time, but of necessity, to achieve that, uses a higher speed).

I'm clearly not a refrigeration engineer, and what I don't know, let alone "know" incorrectly, likely would fill a large book. However, I can't see how, if the air and water are pulling heat, and the frost line is exactly where it should be (right at the end of the last of the evaporators, not into the box, not out of the box, as it was briefly during my fiddling with the CPV), I will do any better.

Failing destruction of the box and starting over, I can't see how my box could have changed from it's state prior to the replacement. 6" of extruded polystyrene, all of them (2" and 4" boards) not only stairstepped but separately and jointly encased (encase, then coat again during installation) in epoxy, then glassed inside and gelcoated SHOULD give a pretty stable heat barrier, I'd think. My double gasketing, arrived at after much experimentation, seems to be pretty airtight. Closing or opening a door requires some effort against the seals, and frost is at a minimum, including one tell-tale area which used to get a lot of it...
__________________
Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig, KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
skipgundlach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 08:32   #12
Registered User
 
tomfl's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 1,959
Images: 10
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
If it helps for comparison, we use ~50Ahr/day on average, i

SNIP
Calder has written a fifty to sixty amps per day is what one should expect a fridge should draw. If you exceed that amount there is something wrong. I have a Frigoboat unit that draws about that.
__________________
tomfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 08:32   #13
Registered User
 
skipgundlach's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Currently on the boat, somewhere on the ocean, living the dream
Boat: Morgan 461 S/Y Flying Pig
Posts: 1,385
Send a message via Skype™ to skipgundlach
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

Quote:
Originally Posted by redsky49 View Post
"Frigoboat catastrophic failure"

Not sure I understand. Isn't this a description of problems with a Seafrost system, not Frigoboat?
Good point. It all started with the failure of a Frigoboat system, but has migrated to a working, but power-hungry, SeaFrost installation discussion.

Perhaps, if mods agree, the topic should be changed, somehow.
__________________
Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig, KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
skipgundlach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 08:46   #14
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,372
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
If it helps for comparison, we use ~50Ahr/day on average, in the deep Caribbean, with one BD50 air cooled compressor running a single thin evaporator plate in a 4cf freezer with a spillover into a 6cf reefer.

The top loading boxes have 6" of polyurethane foam insulation all around and are not located adjacent to any hot machinery space.

Mark
My system is very similar: 9-10 cu ft total with 1-2 cu ft freezer area, BD50 air cooled compressor and 4-6" of sheet foam all around. August in FL with afternoon temps in the mid 90s I was using about 50 Ah/day.

Would not mind a little more freezer space but I'm happy with the system and performance.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 08:57   #15
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Frigoboat catastrophic failure and attempts to start over...

Do you mean a BD80 and not BD85?

If it is cycling 52% of the time and using 200Ahr/day, then it is drawing 16A when running? If it is running 100% and using 200Ahr/day, then it is drawing 8A when running?

Have you directly measured the current it is using when running? None of those numbers above seem normal for any compressor. Maybe the BD80 at high load and high speed will consume 8A.

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Near Catastrophic Failure of Mast Climber Gear Snore Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 31 02-03-2014 18:27
Varnish over Polyurethane? And PU over Varnish? MarkJ Construction, Maintenance & Refit 8 06-08-2013 16:31
Start Small or Start Big ? Zonker Multihull Sailboats 18 16-01-2012 12:13
IP440 Yanmar 4JH3-TE Failure to Start rabend Engines and Propulsion Systems 7 07-01-2010 17:55
CATASTROPHIC SEVERE weather during a passage.... High Cotton Monohull Sailboats 24 04-01-2008 03:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:06.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.