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Old 12-03-2018, 08:44   #16
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Interesting comment on start up voltage.

Why produce controllers that are so sensitive?

I wonder if a sufficiently large capacitor across the supply near the compressor would help?
A capacitor can help to get the compressor going when less then ideal wire is used. Its a lot easier to just avoid this by using to proper gauge of wire for a given length. Also making sure all connections are clean and secure helps . These units are also sensitive to RF interference and the odd signal noise that can creep into your source power that the compressor is connected to . Thats why it is recommended to have a separate path directly to the batteries avoiding the ships main power buss.

Regards John.
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Old 12-03-2018, 10:20   #17
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

Hpeer, Why boot up voltage protection? The answer is to prevent compressor failures do to a faulty refrigerant unit designs or an improperly installation in a boat. One of the moduleís compressor protection functions is to insure correct clean voltage to the rotation electronic that control armature rotation inside compressor. Another safety protection is to determine if compressor and condenser cooling fan is not drawing excessive amperage. The third safety boot up protection is compressor amperage draw and compressor speed at start up. The modules Boot up protection is much the same as your computer boot up by first testing to see if mouse and key board are functioning before computer can be operated. If you have Supermanís eyes to read module voltage and amperage you might see the same fast short duration electrical transients out of limits reading module shuts compressor down at. I hope this explains why I suggest leaving voltmeter in tool box and bypassing all boat wiring to module before condemning or purchasing a new module.

The weak link of these brush-less lifetime compressors is the electronic control module. If the system manufacture screws up the system design or someone puts too much refrigerant in a unit or this mobile refrigerant unit is incorrectly installed control module will fail before compressor fails. Lightening Strike failures are the exception even if boat is not hit Danfoss engineered modules will fail.. For those cruising in South Florida or Bahamas a spare module onboard is a good idea. The number one and two reasons for module failure are module is not connected to main battery busses and compressor is operated under too heave a load. Hard start (soft slow start) modules available are just a band-aid and not a long term solution to module failures.
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Old 12-03-2018, 17:23   #18
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

John, thanks for the feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine View Post
I agree with Richard , you will not see a voltage drop on your voltmeter at startup . You need an oscilloscope to see it , it only last a micro second , but it may be enough to trip the low voltage shut down . Did you use a properly sized wire connected directly to your batteries ? Your power supply may not have enough peak current and could give you a false result.
The wire run is straight from the utility DC bus to the refrigerator. The bus is for the small stuff - lighting, pressure water, etc - and does not include winches, windlass, inverter, etc so is probably pretty clean of spikes. The run is 9 feet in a straight line but does go through some changes in elevation and some twists and turns, so call it 15 feet. It is 6mm^2 (between 9 and 10AWG) which is what Danfoss recommends for installations of up to 19ft.

The installation has only the circuit breaker connection and the cable connector both of which look pretty shiny and uncorroded. My measured starting voltage is ~13.5 so I'd have to lose more than 3 volts to hit the Danfoss specified 12v cut out of 10.4v. The cable run has a theoretical resistance of about .9 ohms per 1000ft. or .0135 ohms in 15 feet. To suffer a 3 volt drop would require a starting current of over 200 amps (3/.0135) which I think is pretty unlikely. 20 amps is probably more likely and would result in a voltage drop of .27v or 13.23 volts on my system which is close to what I saw on the voltmeter - maybe I just got lucky on the timing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine View Post
Also if it is your controller that has died. Install a fan in there around the new one over the controller fins and compressor body , I don't see any fan in there . The unit may have been running on the hot side . Heat kills electronics and the compressor needs air cooling as well. This may help prevent this from happening again.
It's not in the photo but there is a fan installed that blows over the compressor body and the controller, but maybe it's not enough. I check the operating temps from time to time using an infrared gun focused on the compressor ball and typically see between 105 and 120F occasionally higher (maybe 135-140) when we load it up with new stuff that needs to be cooled. Are those normal/acceptable operating temps or should I be looking at more cooling?

Again, thanks for the cautions and input!
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Old 12-03-2018, 18:58   #19
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine View Post
I agree with Richard ,you will not see a voltage drop on your voltmeter at startup . You need an oscilloscope to see it , it only last a micro second , but it may be enough to trip the low voltage shut down . Did you use a properly sized wire connected directly to your batteries ? Your power supply may not have enough peak current and could give you a false result.

Regards John.
Hi John, Sorry John but I don't agree with either you or Richard because if I did we would all be WRONG! you will not see a voltage drop on your voltmeter at startup .That is simply wrong advice. Suggest you check this site: Video tests and Data record. | Ozefridge You need an oscilloscope to see it ,And how many Yaughties have a CRO on board? 4/5ths of B.A. (Barely any!!)

There is a vast difference between supply voltage and transient voltage. They are completely different animals and I think this is where you and Richard are confused.

Supply voltage is usually approx 12.8VDC and with high current delivery ability. This is the voltage from the battery supply that drives the compressor via the Motor Driver Module. This voltage is what can prevent motor start if it is lowering due to one of several supply (battery) and supply chain problems. But this supply voltage rarely initiates the failure of the Motor Driver. This voltage is readable with a MULTI METER!

The voltage that can play havoc with Motor Driver Modules are usually extremely high voltage spikes, transient voltages, (could be 1000's of volts) but with very little current. These are like the spark from an electric fencer and to read the presence of these would require a CRO and a lot of of patience as they usually only occur occasionally so you might be watching for several weeks / months to sight one of these!! Eliminating the source of these transient voltages is near impossible, best to simply fit an adequate Transient Voltage Clamp like Ozefridge and ColdEh do as standard on their systems and eliminate the possibility.

Cheers OzePete Ozefridge | 12 Volt Refrigeration Systems
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Old 12-03-2018, 19:32   #20
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

No problem Anjin

Good you have a fan in there . The compressor temps are ok , just watch the controller temps . They can get very warm depending on what speed you have it running .

Sounds like the wiring is just fine.

Have you ordered the new controller ?

Regards John
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Old 12-03-2018, 21:22   #21
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
Hpeer, Why boot up voltage protection? The answer is to prevent compressor failures do to a faulty refrigerant unit designs or an improperly installation in a boat. One of the moduleís compressor protection functions is to insure correct clean voltage to the rotation electronic that control armature rotation inside compressor. Another safety protection is to determine if compressor and condenser cooling fan is not drawing excessive amperage. The third safety boot up protection is compressor amperage draw and compressor speed at start up. As Richard's comments also confirm, these Motor Driver Modules are / were in my opinion very troublesome and poorly engineered for the task.
Given that these DC compressors were 4 to 6 times more expensive than similar AC models, it is unforgivable that a user should have to fork out hundreds of dollars for Motor drivers that fail, often on a regular basis. Now I know some will blame this or that but the manufacturer should know the environment that their equipment is to operate in and engineer accordingly.
The modules Boot up protection is much the same as your computer boot up by first testing to see if mouse and key board are functioning before computer can be operated. If you have Supermanís eyes to read module voltage and amperage you might see the same fast short duration electrical transients out of limits reading module shuts compressor down at. I hope this explains why I suggest leaving voltmeter in tool box and bypassing all boat wiring to module before condemning or purchasing a new module. Richard, neither I nor anyone else ever said that a multi meter can be used to confirm a faulty Motor Driver Modual. What is said is that a multi meter CAN be used to determine if voltage drop in the power supply to the Motor Driver is the cause of failure thus eliminating the possibility of replacing a perfectly good driver.
Your Superman's eyes comment indicates that you may not understand the difference between the battery supply voltage and transient voltage (spikes) And before advising users to put away their multi-meters, please check this link: Video tests and Data record. | Ozefridge.


The weak link of these brush-less lifetime compressors is the electronic control module. Absolutely agree they are a disgraceIf the system manufacture screws up the system design or someone puts too much refrigerant in a unit or this mobile refrigerant unit is incorrectly installed control module will fail before compressor fails. Lightening Strike failures are the exception even if boat is not hit Danfoss engineered modules will fail.. For those cruising in South Florida or Bahamas a spare module onboard is a good idea. The number one and two reasons for module failure are module is not connected to main battery busses and compressor is operated under too heave a load. Hard start (soft slow start) Again I think you are confused Richard or perhaps don't understand the function and benefits of 'Soft Start' (SCR or VFD) which is nothing to do with Hard Start devices. modules available are just a band-aid and not a long term solution to module failures.
Soft start is certainly a big improvement over the old 'Direct on line' whacko instant start devices. Soft start is far easier on all the components involved and when coupled with a good Transient Voltage Clamp, most of the causes of self destruction of the Motor Driver are eliminated. It is a disgrace that it has taken this long and cost users so much before compressor makers have finally adopt this technology. At Ozefridge we have used soft start Motor Driver Modules and spike arresters for many years and have all-but eliminated Motor Driver failure.

Cheers,
OzePete Ozefridge | 12 Volt Refrigeration Systems
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Old 12-03-2018, 22:04   #22
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

I am new to forum and have a similar problem with Alder Barbour CU 200 cold machine on a 41' monohull also in the Bahamas. I am preparing to travel over from the US this weekend to try and trouble shoot. I hope I am not hijacking this tread but have never posted before so not sure of the protocol. I am taking with me spare cooling fan, module, new 10awg wire, fuses, connectors to follow steps outlined. Unfortunatly already had tech add refrigerant and concerned it is now overcharged. Have AB power plate. How can I tell if overcharged ? how does having holding plate change observations and steps to troubleshoot ?
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Old 12-03-2018, 22:19   #23
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

To add a bit more questions:
I plan to run a new 10 awg wire with 15 amp fuse directly from a fully charged good battery about 10 feet, nothing else connected to battery. check cooling fan operation. jump stat wire terminals with no resister to start at 2000 rpm.
Check led light for trouble code and proceed from there. Any advise/guidance is appreciated. I do no have gauge set.
If I become convinced it is overcharged and I need to bleed out a little coolant which port do I bleed from and other than bleeding a tiny bit at a time what would be the precise procedure and sequence ?

the super cold machine is a 2001 vintage
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Old 12-03-2018, 22:55   #24
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgebluewater View Post
To add a bit more questions:
I plan to run a new 10 awg wire with 15 amp fuse directly from a fully charged good battery about 10 feet, nothing else connected to battery. check cooling fan operation. jump stat wire terminals with no resister to start at 2000 rpm.
Check led light for trouble code and proceed from there. Any advise/guidance is appreciated. I do no have gauge set.
If I become convinced it is overcharged and I need to bleed out a little coolant which port do I bleed from and other than bleeding a tiny bit at a time what would be the precise procedure and sequence ?

the super cold machine is a 2001 vintage
Hi VGE and welcome. You are quite well equipped and obviously understand the need for a good power supply. But considering your limitations I suggest finding out what the 'tech' did previously as sometimes they cause more trouble than they resolve! Like 'did he evacuate the system, how much gas and what type did he ad (if any), did he find / repair any gas leak etc.

Then before running the unit, go over all joins with some soapy water and check for gas leaks (Dish wash detergent with water is good) If all good, run the unit and, if you can, check the power consumption rate cos if over gassed or if there is air in the system then the rate will be high (more than say 5A) If over 5A suggest purging in small increments out the cooler (suction) line until consumption reduces. Another idea when there is to email myself or one of the other refrigeration guys on the forum and provide an update which can help in diagnosing. But above all Keep It Simple!

Cheers, OzePete Ozefridge | 12 Volt Refrigeration Systems
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Old 13-03-2018, 03:03   #25
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

Before you called the technician what was your indication of a refrigeration problem? Did you see a code signal on units front panel LED? The code signal flashes every 4 seconds from 1 to 7 flashes is a helpful trouble shooting guide. This LED will never flash unless there is a problem that needs addressed. Low on refrigerant will not cause LED to flash.

What condition did you observe after technician left that indications lead you to believe he added too much refrigerant?

Do you have a method to record amperage after unit has run more than ten minutes?

Is there a part number on plastic cover of thermostat, if so what is complete number.

Describe in detail where you now see frost any where in this system.

It is difficult on Power Plates to identify a refrigerant over or under charge condition after unit has run one hour is there frost on refrigerant line, If so how far does it extend towards compressor?
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Old 13-03-2018, 08:43   #26
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

Ozepete & Richard, Thank you for the quick reply's. I will answer your questions the best I can for now but won't be on the boat until Friday morning.
The reason I called a tech to add refrigerant was because the holding plate did not seem to frost up like it used to. It would just get cool and get wet like condensated. I do not think the tech evacuated because all I observed him do was hook up his gauge set, he noted the unit said 90 grams and 134a written on a tag so he converted that to 3.2 oz. He used a scale to weight his bottle as he added 134a. This is why I now think it might be overcharged since I don't think he evacuated the system. I did not know there is an LED to display trouble codes when I was onboard so I will check that out and report back. I will also try to get any info off the stat and soap up the fittings to check for leaks.

After he charged the system the holding plate frosted up then reverted to just cool and wet but I also noticed it would not start and stay running it would just try to start and shut down for a minute or two and repeat.

I realize that until I get back on the boat so that I can report back with correct answers it is impossible to know anything for sure. I am just trying to be prepared. I will arrive in the Bahamas Thursday night and have to leave Monday morning. The sole purpose of my trip is to reinstall a repaired inverter/charger and determine if the AD super cold machine is repairable without having to bring the boat back to florida. If it is just a 12volt power issue,fan, module, bad stat or overcharged, I think I can fix it. If it turns out to be compressor dead, contamination or leak then it requires tech I think. I would then plan a trip to bring the boat back to US.

That is my plan for this weekend, hoping for the best !
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Old 13-03-2018, 12:03   #27
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

Richard or perhaps don't understand the function and benefits of 'Soft Start' (SCR or VFD) which is nothing to do with Hard Start devices. modules
Your Superman's eyes comment indicates that you may not understand the difference between the battery supply voltage and transient voltage (spikes) And before advising users to put away their multi-meters, please check this link

Pete, your negative remarks are always interesting opinions. Boat owners like to understand and keep their refrigeration operating even hundreds of miles away from where it was purchased. The success other Icebox conversion refrigeration manufacturers have had is two fold KISS and provide DIY knowledge enough to keep system operating. Kitchen electric appliances are no longer cost effective repairable so they are expendable. Keeping boat icebox conversion simple and energy efficient means it can be repaired any where in the world without assistance from manufacturer. Take the same basic system and add unnecessary sales marketing gadgets or for the lack of parts and DIY knowledge this expensive refrigeration unit is now an expendable item like a kitchen appliance. The idea that any electrical mechanical units will not require maintenance or that a local mechanic can make repairs to a overly complicated machine is not realistic. Have you compared Ozefridge after market support documents to what others have available on line like Frigoboat, Technautic, Adler Barbour, and SeaFrost? It is one thing to have Proprietary parts but also Proprietary to only manufacturer needed technical information.
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Old 13-03-2018, 12:05   #28
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

Cgebluewater, We do not know if all the refrigerant was removed before adding the 90 grams so there might be too much refrigerant..

It was very low on refrigerant.
Apply a 50% mix of liquid soap and water using a one inch paint brush stabbing action with brush is needed to break down surface tension between solution and leak area in order to locate very small leaks.
You need to test for leak as soon as possible. Areas to check for leaks:
Some power plate models have Oring connections where lines inter power plate the tube nuts should be tightened slightly if this area leaks.
Check the two line connectors for leaks at condensing unit.
Check servicing port cap for leaks.
It is recommended to do leak test twice once with system not running and the other with compressor running.

Mutable attempts to start compressor may trigger a Code of three LED flashes every 4 seconds and this would indicate too much refrigerant or contaminated refrigerant.
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Old 13-03-2018, 12:42   #29
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
Richard or perhaps don't understand the function and benefits of 'Soft Start' (SCR or VFD) which is nothing to do with Hard Start devices. modules
Your Superman's eyes comment indicates that you may not understand the difference between the battery supply voltage and transient voltage (spikes) And before advising users to put away their multi-meters, please check this link

Pete, your negative remarks are always interesting opinions. Boat owners like to understand and keep their refrigeration operating even hundreds of miles away from where it was purchased. The success other Icebox conversion refrigeration manufacturers have had is two fold KISS and provide DIY knowledge enough to keep system operating. Kitchen electric appliances are no longer cost effective repairable so they are expendable. Keeping boat icebox conversion simple and energy efficient means it can be repaired any where in the world without assistance from manufacturer. Take the same basic system and add unnecessary sales marketing gadgets or for the lack of parts and DIY knowledge this expensive refrigeration unit is now an expendable item like a kitchen appliance. The idea that any electrical mechanical units will not require maintenance or that a local mechanic can make repairs to a overly complicated machine is not realistic. Have you compared Ozefridge after market support documents to what others have available on line like Frigoboat, Technautic, Adler Barbour, and SeaFrost? It is one thing to have Proprietary parts but also Proprietary to only manufacturer needed technical information.

Being able to sail anywhere in the world and pull a part off of a chandeliers shelf and plug it in to your refrigeration system is a great advantage to a world cruiser , this is why we use Danfoss compressors/controllers and TXVs everything else is Parker. We have just updated our controller to Full Gauge Controls , very easy to source world wide. But you can use anything , it is a simple switch , nothing proprietary.

Our systems are also very easy to charge with never a chance of to much or to little , just us the site glass , simple .



Pete, you don't use a Danfoss compressor or controller ?? who manufactures your compressors ?

Regards John.


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Old 13-03-2018, 19:25   #30
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Re: Fridge Failure - Danfoss BD35F motor start failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
Cgebluewater, We do not know if all the refrigerant was removed before adding the 90 grams so there might be too much refrigerant..

It was very low on refrigerant.
Apply a 50% mix of liquid soap and water using a one inch paint brush stabbing action with brush is needed to break down surface tension between solution and leak area in order to locate very small leaks.
You need to test for leak as soon as possible. Areas to check for leaks:
Some power plate models have Oring connections where lines inter power plate the tube nuts should be tightened slightly if this area leaks.
Check the two line connectors for leaks at condensing unit.
Check servicing port cap for leaks.
It is recommended to do leak test twice once with system not running and the other with compressor running.

Mutable attempts to start compressor may trigger a Code of three LED flashes every 4 seconds and this would indicate too much refrigerant or contaminated refrigerant.
Thank you Richard, I will test accordingly first thing with compressor off and then hopefully with the compressor on. Also check for LED code if it shuts down. If my travel plans go according to plan I should be able to report findings by Friday morning.
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