Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-08-2014, 06:01   #1
Registered User
 
Kasidah's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Central New York
Boat: Ericson 36C, Cutter, Kasidah
Posts: 42
Images: 1
Fresh water toilet

This year we will be at a marine with free water, so I'm trying to install an inlet to supply the boat with endless water. I would also love to have the head use fresh water. Question; I can imagine that the typical marine head pump could not take water pressure. The check valves would be bypassed and fill the bowl and boat ( not good). Any ideas, product or secret I'm missing.
__________________

__________________
Arline Libby
www.ericson-36c-kasidah.blogspot.com
Kasidah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2014, 06:56   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,586
Images: 240
Re: Fresh water toilet

See ➥ Freshwater-Flush Plumbing
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2014, 07:50   #3
Registered User
 
capt-couillon's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Onboard (Boot Key Harbor)
Boat: Cornado 25
Posts: 494
Re: Fresh water toilet

While I am sure you have thought of this.... just a point for those who might not have. City water pressure is a good way to sink the boat. At the very least, install a "knock down" regulator to drop city pressure (can be as high as 100PSI) to a more reasonable 15PSI. It is highly unlikely your existing system was designed for pressures above 15-20 PSI. A split hose, slipped hose clamp, or ruptured diaphragm while an inconvenience when using tank storage, can be a real disaster when the city water comes in faster than the bilge pump puts it overboard.... Just sayin'

Water systems, just like most everything else onboard, prefer to be used. Water is free, hose is close, top up the tanks every few days. Fresh water flush can help reduce the dead critter stink, but how many trips to the pump-out do you want to make each week? When I pay for the use of marina facilities, I use em... and so do my guests, like it or not.

__________________
"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
capt-couillon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2014, 08:04   #4
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 42' Sportfish
Posts: 2,985
Re: Fresh water toilet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasidah View Post
This year we will be at a marine with free water, so I'm trying to install an inlet to supply the boat with endless water. I would also love to have the head use fresh water. Question; I can imagine that the typical marine head pump could not take water pressure. The check valves would be bypassed and fill the bowl and boat ( not good). Any ideas, product or secret I'm missing.

Your boat was delivered without a freshwater inlet?

Anyway... our inlet has a 35-psi pressure regulator, not too dissimilar from the max 40-psi our onboard freshwater pump provides. Your max psi will likely be governed by the various fittings in your internal plumbing.

Our freshwater pump includes a check valves the prevents backflow into the onboard tanks from the shore water inlet.

Our electric fresh water head (Jabsco Quiet Flush; Google that and find docs and diagrams on the XYLEM/JABSCO website) uses a solenoid with backflow preventer to control flush/fill functions. No separate head pump involved; water pressure comes from either shore water or from main freshwater pump on the boat. No idea whether that approach might be useful to modify your existing head's supply.

-Chris
__________________
Selby Bay, South River, Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2014, 08:12   #5
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,515
Re: Fresh water toilet

Your idea sounds like a good idea... But it's not. If something goes wrong, your boat sinks... regarding the water hook up.

Marine heads can't just be hooked up to fresh water via your fresh water system. They need a completely separate feed and source tank. Otherwise, you'll get very sick. They don't function the same as land based toilets that have a reservoir and use gravity to prevent a back flow.
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2014, 08:19   #6
Registered User
 
brownoarsman's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Round Bay, Severn River
Boat: Formerly Pearson 28-1, now just a sailing dinghy
Posts: 1,320
Re: Fresh water toilet

Why not just leave the switch lever on empty bowl, and fill the bowl with fresh water from your sink or bathroom shower head when you need to pump the bowl out? Not the most elegant but probably the simplest solution


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
brownoarsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2014, 09:03   #7
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,651
Re: Fresh water toilet

Many electric heads cannot be used with the yacht's pressure fresh water system. But, for the ones that can, a back-flow preventer must be used, not a check valve. This also applies to manual heads.

For bringing dockside pressure water into the yacht, a pressure regulator is used to limit pressure to ~40 psi. All plumbing from inlet to regulator is in metal--no hoses on the high pressure side. For convenience, an ac solenoid valve can also be installed to remotely control the flow of water, so you can easily shut off dock water flow whenever the boat is unattended, without having to physically turn off the water shutoff.

A high bilge water switch can also be added to close the solenoid valve in case of accidental flooding.
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2014, 09:14   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: michigan
Boat: CORBIN 39
Posts: 301
Re: Fresh water toilet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasidah View Post
This year we will be at a marine with free water, so I'm trying to install an inlet to supply the boat with endless water. I would also love to have the head use fresh water. Question; I can imagine that the typical marine head pump could not take water pressure. The check valves would be bypassed and fill the bowl and boat ( not good). Any ideas, product or secret I'm missing.

I always use fresh water to flush the head. Put a small cup at the ready and fill it from the fresh water sink in the head. one cup usually does it but even two cups are less then using the pump. very important with a holding tank and having guest aboard. young kids can fill up a holding tank in no time by excessive flushings
__________________
sailr69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2014, 05:13   #9
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 42' Sportfish
Posts: 2,985
Re: Fresh water toilet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post

Marine heads can't just be hooked up to fresh water via your fresh water system. They need a completely separate feed and source tank.

Not true. See Jabsco and Raritan (at least) fresh water units. There's a backflow preventer in the system.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Many electric heads cannot be used with the yacht's pressure fresh water system. But, for the ones that can, a back-flow preventer must be used, not a check valve. This also applies to manual heads.

For bringing dockside pressure water into the yacht, a pressure regulator is used to limit pressure to ~40 psi. All plumbing from inlet to regulator is in metal--no hoses on the high pressure side. For convenience, an ac solenoid valve can also be installed to remotely control the flow of water, so you can easily shut off dock water flow whenever the boat is unattended, without having to physically turn off the water shutoff.

Yes, backflow preventer.

Our dockside water plumbing is the same PEX tubing our onboard freshwater system uses, not copper. OTOH, our inlet is also our pressure regulator. I think that's a Jabsco product as well, but likely others make 'em, too.

-Chris
__________________
Selby Bay, South River, Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2014, 05:51   #10
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: Fresh water toilet

The warnings about possible sinking if there is a leak are correct. If you have a water leak in your house it may fill the basement but the house will still be there. If water fills your bilge, the boat will sink.

The warnings on trying to connect a raw water toilet to your potable water system are correct also. You will introduce sewage into the potable water and anyone who drinks it will get very sick. Even showering or washing dishes is not safe.

You can buy and install a head that's safe to connect to the potable water system but it's going to take a very long time to pay back the cost with the savings you get from free water.
__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2014, 06:03   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,515
Re: Fresh water toilet

Ranger42c,

No, my assessment was correct. I read the description of the jabsco toilet and I have two of them on board. The back flow preventer is to keep waste from coming back into the bowl from the bottom after the toilet is flushed. The kind of protection needed in a marine toilet in order to not become very ill, is prevention of bacteria and waste from climbing up the fresh water inlet hose and into your main fresh water tank. Neither toilet has this protection. Your household toilet prevents back flow using gravity, several valves, distance and an airlock. On a marine toilet, there's nothing to stop bacteria from contaminating the fresh water tank via the toilet feed pipe and pump.

The OP is better served just leaving everything as it is. The suggestion by one poster to just flush using the sink water is by far the easiest solution. He can buy a simple sink faucet quick connect to a short hose adapter from the hardware store for under $10.
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2014, 07:40   #12
Registered User
 
appick's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Boat: 1973 Easterly 36
Posts: 446
Re: Fresh water toilet

My friends brother just started deciding to hook his boat up to the dock water full time 2 months ago. 3 weeks ago his boat sunk at the dock. He had the connection/ regulator from the factory (30 years old) for the hook up. I don't know what caused it, if the regulator failed and high psi split the plumbing between a bulkhead and the inner liner. Those twin 360's, Onan generator, 2 AC units, and all the other attendant electrical things shoved in the bilge of his production yacht will never be the same. He left it on a Sunday and Monday got a call from the Grand Isle Marina, in Grand Haven MI saying his boat was sitting very low in the water with the dock lines tight!

Just say no to dockside water hookup! Fill the tanks once a week and marvel at the ease of having your own hose 10ft away to do it with! Ahh the simple luxuries!
__________________
"If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea." Antoine de
appick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2014, 08:54   #13
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,651
Re: Fresh water toilet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
...No, my assessment was correct...The back flow preventer is to keep waste from coming back into the bowl from the bottom after the toilet is flushed...
Uh, no it wasn't. The back-flow preventer prevents contaminated flush water from flowing backwards, from the toilet into your fresh water supply.
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2014, 09:53   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Andaman
Boat: mono GRP full keel
Posts: 168
Re: Fresh water toilet

Hi Kasidah

I have the same questions like yours :-

1. how to hook up direct fresh water from the marina, to reduce the wear and tear in the Jabsco pump especially on the pressure switch,

2. how to hook up fresh water for the head, a Jabsco electric head .

1. I have decided against this approach because I rather have the tanks (5 of them ) cycle with fresh water every couple of weeks than sitting stagnant in the tank and use them when I am out away from marina.

At some point, you will have to use the water in the tank. I don't want to drink stale water that have sat in the tank for 3 months or more.

So changing the Jabsco pump is cheap insurance for better quality of water and one less risk of sinking the boat. I do keep spare pumps.

2. Tried several methods to get fresh water into the head. Have to use low pressure side to feed the head or you will flood it which I did.

On 2 occasions, I had poo poo water backing into the supply side for the water pump. That is with check valves - 2 different brand with one from Italy! Never dared to update the Admiral.

Tried using the high pressure side with a manual tap . Too much trouble juggling the switch for the head while cleaning up.

Fresh Water for the Head

from rw58ph, I finally settled for 2 switch which worked really well. One for the head. One for 12v solenoid valve to allow fresh water from the high pressure side to feed into to the head.

from Freedom45, I liked the idea of using separate tank best. This will be on my project list next season.

Hope this thoughts is worth something.
__________________
ericoh88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-08-2014, 10:56   #15
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,515
Re: Fresh water toilet

OK then, assuming you go through all the hassle to use fresh water to flush your toilet and manage to not get very sick.... What's the point? Is your sh%t going to smell any better because of it?

And no you cannot just hook up your existing head to your existing fresh water supply despite what some on the forum seem to think. I suggest you contact a marine engineer who knows something about what you wish to do rather than blindly accepting advice on an Internet forum. I actually DID look into this three years ago and was advised by a pro who services the Oyster fleet that I was nuts for thinking of doing it. It can be done.... But it's very expensive and not done by just using a simple back flow preventer. And besides he said... What's the point?

Back flow preventers can and do fail... See the above post. Usually you'll discover it failed after your trip to the emergency room.
__________________

__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Raw-water to fresh-water cooling conversion Catamount Engines and Propulsion Systems 31 06-05-2012 08:29
Fresh Water, Gray Water and Black Water Holding Tanks vweber Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 8 12-05-2010 17:31
Blue Water or Fresh Water? John-in-Hamilton General Sailing Forum 13 26-08-2009 02:11



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:18.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.