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Old 25-01-2013, 14:50   #46
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Originally Posted by D_e_n_n_i_s View Post
I wanted to put out a quick note: I believe that bleach is not recommended if you also have a watermaker as it's brutal on the seals. That's why you never want to put city water into a system that will backwash into a watermaker since city water contains chlorine.
Typically, you just use a carbon filter before the watermaker for flushing. We have one inline that takes the chlorine out of the flushing water.
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Old 25-01-2013, 14:59   #47
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

while we're on the subject, does carbon take the chlorine out of the water?

i've been known to put a little too much chlorine in my water tanks and i'm wondering if putting a carbon filter between the tanks and my lips would be useful...
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Old 25-01-2013, 15:18   #48
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

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Originally Posted by onestepcsy37 View Post
while we're on the subject, does carbon take the chlorine out of the water?
Yes

Since the water in my tanks with weekend only use tends to stay in the tanks a while I maintain a pretty good free chlorine level (I test for it), so I have a carbon filter for my drinlng watwer outlet.

PS - my tanks stay clean with no growth. Maybe stuff doesn't like to grow in Hunter tanks
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Old 25-01-2013, 15:22   #49
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

don, you say you test for chlorine level. how do you do that? swimming pool tester?
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Old 25-01-2013, 15:29   #50
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

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don, you say you test for chlorine level. how do you do that? swimming pool tester?
I'm an industrial water treater so I have a test kit, but you can get a kit at a pool store or at Home Depot etc.
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Old 25-01-2013, 16:24   #51
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

Fascinating.

While I've never had biogrowth problems in my water tanks, I'm lucky enough to be on a good public water supply. But occasionally I travel further.

I don't get involved in sterilization, but I do have cooling towers to treat. So I find all of the ideas interesting. Of course, we have to watch scale and corrosion at the same time, so thing are not so simple. We don't worry about spores, only biomass. Reinfection is continuous (airborne).

Regarding blanket statements about what kills what, they can be silly. Sufficiently dilute, none of these will work. Sufficiently strong, all of these will kill everything and dissolve it too. Where is the middle ground?

The USEPA has this to say about anthrax spores:
Anthrax Spore Decontamination using Bleach (Sodium Hypochlorite) | Pesticides | US EPA
Basically 25% household bleach in water with enough vinegar to take the pH to 7; this is strong stuff. Contact time is 60 minutes. Certainly a way to clean a tank, if all surfaces are in reach. I really don't believe anything can be sterilized unless all of the physical dirt is removed; bugs can hide from most anything under corrosion or biomass.

Interestingly, bleach is generally more effective as a chemical oxidizing agent at high pH (10+). Interesting to ponder; the requirements of a cleaner and disinfectant are different, hinting why most bleach cleaners cannot excel at both. They are cleaners.

Statements regarding whether a tank will remain sterile for weeks or months seem beside the point; the tank will be refilled in days. What matters is practical on-going treatment.

Vinegar. Enough to sterilize water will render the water unusable for any purpose. I run waste plants that biodegrade dilute organic acids using bacteria. They love it. I dislike vinegar anyway.

Bleach. Hard or impossible to use enough without the water getting nasty.

Chloramine. Rather like bleach, without getting into the details. Lasts longer. I generally like this approach, but it does take more care. Not effective on everything.

H2O2. Sure. Problems discussed in other posts.

-----

Honestly, if I wanted safe drinking water in the 3rd world I would use a spore-specific filtration system for the drinking water only. The rest I would slightly over treat with bleach and not worry if it was imperfect.

And I like both beer and tea. Proven safe.
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Old 25-01-2013, 18:26   #52
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

don lucas - assume i use a home depot test kit. how do i know when the chlorine level indicated is the 'proper' level of chlorine? is there a proper level or a range of levels?

thinwater - each morning i boil the kettle for coffee and oatmeal. does the initial boiling remove the chlorine (and any other nasties) or do i need to boil for 20 minutes or so.

gordmay - i take back everything i said about you.
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Old 25-01-2013, 18:31   #53
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

A bleach and mixed oxidant disinfectant contact time/doseage table:

http://www.miox.com/treatment-challe...ble_012011.pdf

No idea of the accuracy, as it is vendor supplied, but the data points I am familiar with look right. At least it should provide some perspective of what is needed for different purposes.

Bear in mind that anything over a few ppm is hard to drink.
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Old 25-01-2013, 18:59   #54
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

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don lucas - assume i use a home depot test kit. how do i know when the chlorine level indicated is the 'proper' level of chlorine? is there a proper level or a range of levels?
Depends on what if any problem you are addressing.


if the kit is reading as free chlorine

if maintaining a level a good level would be 0.3-0.6ppm

if you are doing a batch add to a tank that you don't feel has had a problem 1-2ppm

if you doing a disinfection I would aim for 5 ppm (you will need to drain and flush afterward)

all this assumes you don't have metal tanks, especially aluminum

Water tanks not in service seem to hold a chlorine level longer than I would have expected.

clean tanks should only need a couple of ounces of bleach

People can argue the dosages some, so regardless of my experience ................I ain't no expert!
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Old 25-01-2013, 19:47   #55
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

thanks don. i know that sometimes these things aren't pure science, so maybe a range of numbers is all i should expect. at least it's a start. i have fiberglass tanks so i'm not overly concerned about metallic reactions.
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Old 25-01-2013, 21:58   #56
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another disinfectant that is widely used in the dairy industry is iodine.
'tamed' iodine is used to clean milkers, tanks and lines. It is left in lines between milking and flushed with water before use.
Does anyone have any experience using it it water tanks?
it is readily available at farm supply stores.
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Old 25-01-2013, 22:42   #57
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
My sincere apologies to Zeehag

Please accept my sincere apologies for my earlier comments regarding your scientific information. They were inaccurate, rude, and in violation of our CF code of conduct.
Should I take issue with any contributed facts or opinion, I should try to refute them (if I can), without resorting to generalised personal attack.
Iíve flagged my offending post, for moderation/deletion.
Thanks for your temperate and restrained response.
I'd say nothing short of a public flogging will do Gord
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Old 26-01-2013, 05:58   #58
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

Here's something from the EPA in regards emergency disinfection which gives a ratio for iodine treatment

Emergency Disinfection of Drinking Water | Emergency Preparedness | US EPA

but then...
here's a paper in regards iodine binding to stainless lines - a quick glance at the abstract says 'corrosion'

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/o...01/MQ28825.pdf
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Old 26-01-2013, 07:31   #59
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

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... we actually had to close icu's for mrsa before the good stuff was discovered and bough ferom that santa fe springs company that made concept 256. that wasnt used in water systems, but the cleaning of the rest of the or and icu was accomplished with it. good stuff. no chlorine.
This stuff?

Wayne Concept 256 is a Dual Quaternary disinfectant (Np 12.5) containing the active ingredients:
Alkyl* dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride
Alkyl (68%C12, 32%C14) dimethylethylbenzyl ammonium chloride

http://www.janitorssupplyco.com/PDF/Concept%20256N.pdf

PAN Product Info for Wayne concept 256


About LOW LEVEL DISINFECTANTS

The quaternary ammonium compounds are widely used as disinfectants but are contraindicated as antiseptics. Their failure as antiseptics on skin and tissue was recognized following several outbreaks of infections associated with their use. There are also reports of healthcare-associated infections associated with contaminated quaternary ammonium compounds used to disinfect patient-care supplies or equipment such as cystoscopes or cardiac catheters. The quaternaries are good cleaning agents but high water hardness and materials such as cotton and gauze pads may make them less microbiocidal because these materials absorb the active ingredients. As with several other disinfectants (e.g., phenolics, iodophors) gram-negative bacteria have been found to survive or grow in these preparations.
Quaternary ammonium (QA) disinfectants contain NH4+. The labels often list a form of ammonium chloride (AC) such as alkyl aryl, benzyl, didecyl, dimethyl, ethylbenzyl, octyl or a combination thereof. Benzalconium chloride (BC) is a more tissue friendly QA than AC. QA disinfectants are effective against Gram + and Gram - bacteria, and enveloped viruses.

They are not effective against non-enveloped viruses, fungi and bacterial spores. QA disinfectants carry a very strong positive charge that makes good contact with negatively charged surfaces. This characteristic makes most very good cleaning agents. QA compounds are generally low in toxicity, but prolonged contact can be irritating. The quaternaries are commonly used in ordinary environmental sanitation of noncritical surfaces such as floors, furniture, and walls.

Page 6 ➥ http://www.bccdc.ca/NR/rdonlyres/EAA...es_nov0503.pdf
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Old 26-01-2013, 11:02   #60
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

Whew! Well that got everybody sitting up and listening . You've all said it so I won't add any more comments on the bleach versus vinegar question.

Zeehag if it works for you, then great. I'm not worried about algae so much as ecoli bacteria and parasites. Bleach it is for me.
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