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Old 25-01-2013, 10:10   #31
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
that isn't true!
so, you will argue with over 30 yeas of interminable continuous studies on germ and mold and algae control as done by many hospitals in which nurses function and take part in the studies of just exactly this topic.....sorry, i MUST laugh. facts is facts. research better, don...preserve your health, dont trust bleach when it truly does NOT kill anything--except hiv.....(which dies in plain tap water, as well as exposure of 10 mins out of body)
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Old 25-01-2013, 11:03   #32
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

zee please post a link to a research paper as I can find lots that say otherwise!
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Old 25-01-2013, 11:09   #33
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

the papers were merely memos made to staff regarding the ineffectiveness of certain alleged agents for cleaning germs, viruses. molds and fungi. only one cleaner did them all effecrtively--concept 256, made for hospitals by a company in santa fe springs, cali.
as the researchers were hospitals, there were n formal papers made. i worked in 5 hospitals with on going studies as there was much outbreak of bad stuff occurring, mainly in operating rooms and intensive care areas.

what i learned from taking these studies home is that vinegar treated jerry jugs are clean of molds and algae for 2 years. bleach cleaned jugs remained clean for 3 months.

have fun.
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Old 25-01-2013, 11:27   #34
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

Well I'm only a water treatment professional who among other things has a responsibility to disinfect, but hey I ain't no expert.

But like any other biocide if chlorine (bleach) isn't applied at the proper concentrations it wouldn't do the job.

Chlorine as a disinfectant

Chlorine is one of the most widely used disinfectants. It is very applicable and very effective for the deactivation of pathogenic microorganisms. Chlorine can be easily applied, measures and controlled. Is is fairly persistent and relatively cheap.
Chlorine has been used for applications, such as the deactivation of pathogens in drinking water, swimming pool water and wastewater, for the disinfection of household areas and for textile bleaching, for more than two hundred years. When chlorine was discovered we did not now that disease was caused by microorganisms. In the nineteenth century doctors and scientists discovered that many diseases are contagious and that the spread of disease can be prevented by the disinfection of hospital areas. Very soon afterward, we started experimenting with chlorine as a disinfectant. In 1835 doctor and writer Oliver Wendel Holmes advised midwifes to wash their hands in calcium hypochlorite (Ca(ClO)2-4H2O) to prevent a spread of midwifes fever.
However, we only started using disinfectants on a wider scale in the nineteenth century, after Louis Pasteur discovered that microorganisms spread certain diseases.
Chlorine has played an important role in lenghthening the life-expectancy of humans.



Chlorine as a bleach

Surfaces can be disinfected by bleaching. Bleach consists of chlorine gas dissolved in an alkali-solution, such as sodium hydroxide (NaOH). When chlorine is dissolved in an alkalic solution, hypochlorite ions (OCl-) are formed during an autoredox reaction. Chlorine reacts with sodium hydroxide to sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl). This is a very good disinfectant with a stable effect.

Read more: chlorine as disinfectant for water
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Old 25-01-2013, 11:28   #35
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
... facts is facts. research better ...
Chlorine bleach, when used properly, is a practical and effective disinfectant.

It's one of the only household cleaning materials regulated by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), which means that it's been tested and shown to kill microorganisms, such as the E. coli, responsible for many cases of foodborne illness. And it takes just a small amount to do this, 1 part bleach to 4 parts water.
When sodium hypochlorite comes in contact with viruses, bacteria, mold or fungi, it oxidizes molecules in the cells of the germs and kills them.

Vinegar is useful as a cleaner, and has some antimicrobial properties, but it is not considered a sanitiser or disinfectant.

However:

Killing Power Of Bleach Increased By Vinegar

Adding white vinegar to diluted household bleach greatly increases the disinfecting power of the solution, making it strong enough to kill even bacterial spores.

A convenient formula to produce a solution of acidified bleach is 1.0 cup (8.0 oz.) of concentrated bleach (approx. 5.25% NaOCl) added to 1.0 gallon (128 oz.) of tap water, and then add 1.0 cup of 5 % distilled white cooking vinegar. Follow the warning directions on the bleach label. Do not add cleaning solutions containing ammonia to bleach. After an exposure of 20.0 or 30.0 min, rinse the surfaces to remove the bleach. Use acidified bleach within about 8.0 hrs, and then discard to a sanitary drain.
Biodefense work by MicroChem Laboratory
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Old 25-01-2013, 11:41   #36
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

we only tested the water storage and ice makers , so i dont know anything at all...lol..enjoy your molds and algaes.
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Old 25-01-2013, 11:43   #37
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
my first tank cleaning i used a half gallon ov vinegar in each of my 80 gal tanks. second time i used a half gallon clorox in each tank. i rinsed them out each time and then filled.
the vinegar cleaning lasted much longer than thew clorox cleaning and did not yield rusty water when the tank was opened, as did the clorox treatment did.
i recommend vinegar treatment to clean then fill with filtered water.
Zeehag - thanks for the tip. Do you let the vinegar "sit" in the tank for any amount of time?
As per Peggy's suggestion to leave the system pressurized, what to do to clean the plumbing if you have only manual/foot pumps?
Thanks
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Old 25-01-2013, 11:47   #38
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

i added the vinegar to the end of my tank holdings, let it sit for about an hour--was only 5 or fewer gallons held, then i stated my pressure pump to let out the vinegar water and as it was pumping, i began the fill process....

same when i did the chlorox treatment, only the treatment with bleach only lasted me 3 months, as opposed to the vinegar lasting much longer--i enjoy clean water.
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Old 25-01-2013, 11:58   #39
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
we only tested the water storage and ice makers , so i dont know anything at all...lol..enjoy your molds and algaes.

My company is doing ice machine cleanings at major hospitals in the Boston and NYC and all the area between, guess what we are using for disinfection?

Chlorine (bleach)

chlorine may be up to 10 times more effective at a lower pH (ie the adding vinegar)

As I asked earlier, please provide some published research links to support otherwise. I will be sure to pass the info on to our group as many of us are members of various hospitals infectious disease control boards.
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Old 25-01-2013, 12:06   #40
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

good. we were disallowed use of chlorine in our systems. didnt kill what needed to be killed, so we used a different product--made the down time for the systems unbearable, but the stuff worked well. dont recall the name--was NOT chlorine.

must be difference in cleaning west coast to east coast. mebbe our bugs were better and stronger--this was all being done when mrsa was first discovered and was hiding in the ice machines and water sources for drinking. we actually had to close icu's for mrsa before the good stuff was discovered and bough ferom that santa fe springs company that made concept 256. that wasnt used in water systems, but the cleaning of the rest of the or and icu was accomplished with it. good stuff. no chlorine.
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Old 25-01-2013, 12:30   #41
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

Zeehag may be confusing peracetic acid (a peroxide) with acetic acid (vinegar), methinks

http://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/pdf/guidel...n_nov_2008.pdf
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Old 25-01-2013, 12:33   #42
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

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Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
Zeehag may be confusing peracetic acid (a peroxide) with acetic acid (vinegar), methinks

http://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/pdf/guidel...n_nov_2008.pdf


with a chemical engineer for a father, and heavy chemistry in nursing, btw--i did well in chem and bio... i do not confuse my chemicals.

i use no peroxide based solutions except for removal of fiberglass from skin. but sea water also does that just fine.

i use white VINEGAR, commonly found in grocery stores, and often by the gallon, called white vinegar, not something absurd or expensive. it fixes my water tanks just fine.

have a great day and smooth sailing.
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Old 25-01-2013, 12:39   #43
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

I appreciate all of the feedback and never thought of combining vinegar with bleach to create a more effective cleaning solution by lowering the PH so I certainly learned something new !!! I happen to work in a hospital and we do use bleach when we have a patient with MRSA to clean the room. It's the disinfectant also used for any really bad infection cases to completely disinfect the room.

I also used to work with Betz Laboratories and we used highly concentrated hydogen peroxide, which in the same concentration is actually a stronger oxidizer than bleach. I believe that oxidation is the mechanism by which both high concentration hydrogen peroxide (not the stuff you buy over the counter) and bleach kills those nasty bugs.

Vinegar would certainly help to dissolve the carbonate buildup with the change in PH as basic chemistry 101, but I do know it is extremely versatile as a cleaner in general. City water plants treat water with bleach, however, and it is a common disinfectant used widely around the world for this purpose.

When you work with highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide, you have to be very, very careful. I had some brought over to our testing trailer on a metal cart. I had to wear a face mask and gloves to just get a few ml of the stuff to treat the cooling tower. The specialized composite tank developed a leak and dripped onto the metal cart and the metal started bubbling ... After taking a sample I would wash the gloves off, then remove them and wash my hands ... then watch my hands turn white like they had been soaking in bleach ...

I think there is no way around physically scrubbing out my tanks after decades of sitting around with water in them. I'm sure the build-up, more thinking here of carbonates than biomass, are going to make it a tough scrub. You can never go wrong with elbow grease, but disinfection is another critical step to go along with this.

Again, I appreciate all of the feedback and the spirited dialogue has certainly led to some considerations that I had never thought of until now. I think I'll end up using a combination of bleach and vinegar for the intial scrub-down (physical access required). If the water is captured properly from rainwater (and I'll be running it through UV-light as well), then it usually is clean initially, but becomes tainted over time due to exposure to the surfaces, etc. - They have UV lights that can actually be dangled into the tank for sterilization and I'd probably go with just a little bit of bleach to sterilize the water (I'll have to look up the proper dosage, but it doesn't take much and bleach - sodium hypochlorite - is very volatile and will dissapate quickly enough within a reasonable amount of time). I love the idea of using vinegar on a more regular basis since drinking it (in reasonable dosage) has a positive health benefit whereas bleach is rough until it comes out of solution ... lol

Just some thoughts and not at all certified as proof positive on anything ... Thanks to everyone and I mean that !! I appreciate and respect all contributions with no exception !!!
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Old 25-01-2013, 13:00   #44
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

I wanted to put out a quick note: I believe that bleach is not recommended if you also have a watermaker as it's brutal on the seals. That's why you never want to put city water into a system that will backwash into a watermaker since city water contains chlorine. I would think that vinegar would be gentle enough to use with a watermaker, but I'll leave that for others to provide feedback because I have no idea.

As usual, Gord May is such an accurate resource on this site that you can say you saw the answer in his post first ...

BTW, thanks Gord May for the acidified bleach solution details. You always have terrific, detailed input with such wonderful accuracy. It never goes unnoticed ...

I am copying a city guide on water purification in an emergency (All rights belong to: http://www.cityofbremerton.com/conte...kingwater.html)

Boiling
Boiling is the best way to purify water that is unsafe because of presence of bacteria. Place the water in a clean container and bring it to a full boil and continue boiling for at least 3 minutes. If you are more than 5,000 feet above sea level, you must increase boiling time to at least 5 minutes.

Boiled water should be kept covered while cooling and can be stored in the manner described under "Storing Water For Emergencies."

Purifying By Adding Liquid Bleach
If boiling is not possible, the water can be made safe for drinking by treating with liquid household chlorine bleach (such as Clorox, Purex, etc.) Avoid using scented and "color-safe" bleaches. Household bleach has a strength of about 5% chlorine (most labels show it as 5.25%).

Place the water (filtered if necessary) in a clean container, add the amount of bleach according to the tables below. It is important to mix thoroughly and allow to stand for at least 30 minutes before using the water. If the water is cloudy, or very cold, increase the standing time to 60 minutes. For treating small amounts of water, you may find it easier to use a 1% bleach solution.

You can also use water to purifying tablets or chemicals designed for use when camping or backpacking. Always follow the directions on the package.

Note: Chlorine and other chemicals will not kill cysts of the parasite Cryptosporidium ("Crypto"), which may be present in water supplies affected by untreated surface water. Cryptosporidium is an organism that can cause severe illness and even death in persons who have been weakened because of health problems. Boiling is the best water treatment in these situations.

Very Important
The treatments described above work only in situations where the water is unsafe because of the presence of bacteria. If you suspect the water is unsafe because of chemicals, oils, poisonous substances, sewage, etc., do not use the water for drinking.


How to make a 1% bleach solution:
Mix 1 part of 5% household bleach and 4 parts clean water by volume to give 5 parts 1% bleach solution. For example, 1 ounce bleach to 4 ounces of water or 1 cup bleach to 4 cups water.

Keep bleach solutions in tightly capped containers and labeled to it's strength. Store in a cool place. Discard and make fresh solutions every 6 months.

Chlorine Bleach Solution to add for clean water, or to keep water safe Amount of water to be treatedAmount of bleach solution addUsing 1% solutionUsing 5% solution1 quart or 1 liter10 drops OR 1/8 tsp3 drops1/2 gallon or 2 quarts or 2 liters20 drops OR 1/4 tsp5 drops1 gallon40 drops OR 2.5 mL OR 1/2 tsp10 drops OR 1/8 tsp5 gallons12.5 mL OR 2.5 tsp50 drops OR 2.5 mL OR 1/2 tsp10 gallons25 mL OR 5 tsp5 mL OR 1 tspImportant: allow treated water to stand at least 30 minutes before using.
tsp=teaspoon; Tbsp=Tablespoon; mL=milliliter

Chlorine Bleach Solution to add for cloudy water, very cold water, or water coming from surface water sources Amount of water to be treatedAmount of bleach solution to addUsing 1% solutionUsing 5% solution1 quart or 1 liter20 drops OR 1/4 tsp5 drops1/2 gallon or 2 quarts or 2 liters40 drops OR 2.5 mL OR 1/2 tsp10 drops OR 1/8 tsp1 gallon5 mL OR 1 tsp20 drops OR 1/4 tsp5 gallons25 mL OR 5 tsp5 mL OR 1 tsp10 gallons50 mL OR 10 tsp OR 3 Tbsp10 mL OR 2 tspImportant: Allow treated water to stand at least 60 minutes before using
tsp=teaspoon; Tbsp=Tablespoon; mL=milliliter
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Old 25-01-2013, 13:36   #45
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Re: Fresh Water Tank Cleaning

It has been over 30 minutes so I can't edit my response so I'll re-post that last part where the tables got messed up :

Chlorine Bleach Solution to add for clean water, or to keep water safe
Amount of water to be treated | Amount of bleach solution add
--------------------------------Using 1% solution | Using 5% solution
1 quart or 1 liter --------------10 drops OR 1/8 tsp | 3 drops
1/2 gallon or 2 quarts
or 2 liters ---------------------20 drops OR 1/4 tsp | 5 drops
1 gallon ------------40 drops OR 2.5 mL OR 1/2 tsp | 10 drops OR 1/8 tsp
5 gallons ----------------------12.5 mL OR 2.5 tsp | 50 drops OR 2.5 mL OR 1/2 tsp
10 gallons -------------------------25 mL OR 5 tsp | 5 mL OR 1 tsp

Important: allow treated water to stand at least 30 minutes before using.
tsp=teaspoon; Tbsp=Tablespoon; mL=milliliter
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chlorine Bleach Solution to add for cloudy water, very cold water, or water coming from surface water sources
Amount of water to be treated | Amount of bleach solution to add
--------------------------------Using 1% solution | Using 5% solution
1 quart or 1 liter --------------20 drops OR 1/4 tsp | 5 drops

1/2 gallon or 2 quarts
or 2 liters ----------40 drops OR 2.5 mL OR 1/2 tsp | 10 drops OR 1/8 tsp

1 gallon ----------------------------5 mL OR 1 tsp | 20 drops OR 1/4 tsp
5 gallons --------------------------25 mL OR 5 tsp | 5 mL OR 1 tsp
10 gallons -------------50 mL OR 10 tsp OR 3 Tbsp | 10 mL OR 2 tsp

Important: Allow treated water to stand at least 60 minutes before using
tsp=teaspoon; Tbsp=Tablespoon; mL=milliliter
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