Fresh water makers best price and performance?

[Hobie_ind]

Seeing your planned solar, here's our experience to give you another datapoint to help with your decision making.

- Family of 4
- Cruising full time last 1-1/2 years - Caribbean and South Pacific
- Average water consumption - 80 l/d at anchor / 40 l/d underway (We're cruising with families who's consumption ranges from 1/2 of ours to 3+ times ours)
- Boat has a generator and washing machine. We do a load of laundry every 2-3 days.
- Solar array of 825 watts on davits
- 24 volt house bank, 450 Ah lead acid (@24 V so would be 880 Ah in a 12 volt system)
- Dessalator 40 l/hr watermaker, 24 V only, 16-18 Amps in operation. Very basic system, no boost pump, basic HP pump (no pressure recovery), single 5 micron filter, manual operation (pressure regulation, bypass or into tank selection, backflush, $40 pen style water quality tester). Normally we see about 45 l/hr production.
- Since installing solar, estimated 75% of the watermaker operation has been off solar panels. For example, this morning at 10 am with the watermaker running, I was still putting 5-7 amps (24 V) into the house bank.
- When I run the washing machine and generator, we typically also charge the batteries and run the watermaker for the hour the washing machine is going. This allows continued operation of the watermaker afterwards (if sunny) for an additional 3 hrs and still gets the batteries to a full charge.

What would I spec for our boat if starting from scratch?
- Without the solar, I'd have spec'd a 160 l/hr AC motor driven unit. I found it much more difficult to keep up with our needs off the generator alone. The draw was large enough that you couldn't leave the watermaker running without the generator or motor for long as it pulled the batteries down pretty quick.
- Now with the solar, it's a toss up. I certainly wouldn't go smaller than ours and might look at Dessalator's 60 l/hr unit that runs on either 24 V or 220 AC. At times, I think the much larger system (ie. 160 l/hr) would nice in that you'd only have to make water every 3 days or so and catching up after being in a dirty anchorage would be much easier, but what we have works pretty well for us. In fact we've had 3 guests aboard (for 7 total) for the past couple weeks and it's been pretty easy to keep up.
- With the cost (and size) of solar coming down like it has, the trade off and expense of a the more efficient systems like Spectra vs the more basic systems like Dessalator or Cruise RO would be something I'd have to give some serious thought. The folks I know with Spectra systems do like them, but that pump is clearly more expensive and difficult to rebuild than the basic HP pumps that Dessalator and Cruise RO use.
- I do know if I went with a system like Spectra, I'd order the completely manual version. The operation of them just doesn't justify the automation IMO. In the Caribbean, I'd estimate 3/4 of the watermaker discussions at the bar centered around smoked boards, and where to get cheaper replacement boards, sensors, etc. The majority of the rest was pump and membrane issues. The simpler pumps certainly seemed to be less troublesome.

Finally, on the cost issue. I just took a quick stab at calculating our water costs. Based on our op costs over the past couple years (and these are high since in the process of getting the boat prepped to go, I replaced most of the membrane system including tubes and 3 of the 4 end daps, rebuilt the HP pump and put two sets of membranes in after poisoning a set in Cartagena). I come up with about $0.15 / gallon. If I replace this with the estimated cost of a new system, the cost of diesel, etc, I can get it to almost $0.50/ga but that's amortizing the entire cost of the system over two years which is excessive. I can't seem to get close to $12 however. But as has been pointed out, the price of freedom is tough to calculate. We've got friends who are cruising the S Pacific without a watermaker, but I know they've cut their time short in a few places as they were running low, and I know they've got water from other friends with watermakers a few times. I like ours and wouldn't plan another cruise without one.

Hope this helps.

Mark
Amel Super Maramu
Currently cruising S Pacific with our family (13 yr old daughter/15 yr old son)

[nolakennedys]

Originally Posted by Hobie_ind

Seeing your planned solar, here's our experience to give you another datapoint to help with your decision making.

- Family of 4
- Cruising full time last 1-1/2 years - Caribbean and South Pacific
- Average water consumption - 80 l/d at anchor / 40 l/d underway (We're cruising with families who's consumption ranges from 1/2 of ours to 3+ times ours)
- Boat has a generator and washing machine. We do a load of laundry every 2-3 days.
- Solar array of 825 watts on davits
- 24 volt house bank, 450 Ah lead acid (@24 V so would be 880 Ah in a 12 volt system)
- Dessalator 40 l/hr watermaker, 24 V only, 16-18 Amps in operation. Very basic system, no boost pump, basic HP pump (no pressure recovery), single 5 micron filter, manual operation (pressure regulation, bypass or into tank selection, backflush, $40 pen style water quality tester). Normally we see about 45 l/hr production.
- Since installing solar, estimated 75% of the watermaker operation has been off solar panels. For example, this morning at 10 am with the watermaker running, I was still putting 5-7 amps (24 V) into the house bank.
- When I run the washing machine and generator, we typically also charge the batteries and run the watermaker for the hour the washing machine is going. This allows continued operation of the watermaker afterwards (if sunny) for an additional 3 hrs and still gets the batteries to a full charge.

What would I spec for our boat if starting from scratch?
- Without the solar, I'd have spec'd a 160 l/hr AC motor driven unit. I found it much more difficult to keep up with our needs off the generator alone. The draw was large enough that you couldn't leave the watermaker running without the generator or motor for long as it pulled the batteries down pretty quick.
- Now with the solar, it's a toss up. I certainly wouldn't go smaller than ours and might look at Dessalator's 60 l/hr unit that runs on either 24 V or 220 AC. At times, I think the much larger system (ie. 160 l/hr) would nice in that you'd only have to make water every 3 days or so and catching up after being in a dirty anchorage would be much easier, but what we have works pretty well for us. In fact we've had 3 guests aboard (for 7 total) for the past couple weeks and it's been pretty easy to keep up.
- With the cost (and size) of solar coming down like it has, the trade off and expense of a the more efficient systems like Spectra vs the more basic systems like Dessalator or Cruise RO would be something I'd have to give some serious thought. The folks I know with Spectra systems do like them, but that pump is clearly more expensive and difficult to rebuild than the basic HP pumps that Dessalator and Cruise RO use.
- I do know if I went with a system like Spectra, I'd order the completely manual version. The operation of them just doesn't justify the automation IMO. In the Caribbean, I'd estimate 3/4 of the watermaker discussions at the bar centered around smoked boards, and where to get cheaper replacement boards, sensors, etc. The majority of the rest was pump and membrane issues. The simpler pumps certainly seemed to be less troublesome.

Finally, on the cost issue. I just took a quick stab at calculating our water costs. Based on our op costs over the past couple years (and these are high since in the process of getting the boat prepped to go, I replaced most of the membrane system including tubes and 3 of the 4 end daps, rebuilt the HP pump and put two sets of membranes in after poisoning a set in Cartagena). I come up with about $0.15 / gallon. If I replace this with the estimated cost of a new system, the cost of diesel, etc, I can get it to almost $0.50/ga but that's amortizing the entire cost of the system over two years which is excessive. I can't seem to get close to $12 however. But as has been pointed out, the price of freedom is tough to calculate. We've got friends who are cruising the S Pacific without a watermaker, but I know they've cut their time short in a few places as they were running low, and I know they've got water from other friends with watermakers a few times. I like ours and wouldn't plan another cruise without one.

Hope this helps.

Mark
Amel Super Maramu
Currently cruising S Pacific with our family (13 yr old daughter/15 yr old son)

Simply awesome post! Thank you so much! This is extremely helpful!

[Dulcesuenos]

Originally Posted by colemj

All water makers that are installed above the water line require a boost pump regardless of how they are powered. The HP pump should not work at a large head. In the case of an AC water maker, the boost pump should be AC powered - which will typical add 1A to the power requirement.

I think everyone keeps forgetting that the OP's requirements were for a <$5000 unit that can be run off solar. Spectra costs more than this.

Mark

Cruise Ro shows a 12v boost pump that draws 13 amps in conjunction with the 110 high pressure pump.
I have installed. 12v mini feed boost pumps that draw very little as you have said. Understand this is a thread drift but for just a little over 5k the op could get a pretty decent unit. No boost pump needed in most cases.

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[Tellie]

Originally Posted by colemj

All water makers that are installed above the water line require a boost pump regardless of how they are powered. The HP pump should not work at a large head. In the case of an AC water maker, the boost pump should be AC powered - which will typical add 1A to the power requirement.

I think everyone keeps forgetting that the OP's requirements were for a <$5000 unit that can be run off solar. Spectra costs more than this.

Mark

All due respect, this is not true. The Spectra 150/200/330 all can be mounted up to 36" above the waterline without a boost pump. It would be very rare to see the types of boats that would use these system ever have a watermaker that high in the first place. I've installed hundreds of these and have never added a boost pump. And yes the Spectras in this line are a bit north of the OP's 5k number. But the benefits of a bit less than one boat buck far out weigh the initial dollar savings gained.

Halden Marine Services | Marine Watermakers, Solar Panels, Wind Generators

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Cruise Ro shows a 12v boost pump that draws 13 amps in conjunction with the 110 high pressure pump.

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Just a correction.

The 12v boost pump we use draws 8.3A. Of course you can go for the AC version of the boost pump if you want to keep everything in AC, but here is why I like the DC boost pump...ease of maintenance in fresh water flushing. With a 12v DC boost pump its a piece of cake to manually fresh water flush by turning a valve and pushing a switch on for 3 minutes without the need to start your generator for AC power. Or for those that want an automatic fresh water flush option, which we have, its easy as well with no generator or AC power needed.

I keep seeing the term "back flush" used, but it is more correct to just say fresh water flush since most marine water makers are not actually reversing the flow, but just flushing out the sea water (more importantly the animals in it).

As for boost pumps...the No 1 problem in high output water maker installations with high flow piston pumps is making sure the HP pump has a positive supply of sea water at the inlet. And you need to maintian this flow with dirty prefilters. Starve a high flow piston pump for sea water and what do you get? Cavitation at the pump, pressure fluctuations at the membrane and that means reduced membrane life and pump issues. Including a self priming boost pump as standard makes life much easier when it comes to fresh water flushing, pickling and just overall mounting location decisions for the various water maker parts because you know the boost pump will pick up the slack for your extra tubing run that your install needed.

When it comes to the durability of the Hp piston pumps, we have not had a single HP pump failure yet with 1135 pumps shipped out the door...knock on teak. We have had two packing rebuilds from running the HP pumps dry (one on my own unit...when a Mexican bag fish blocked my through hull when I was off the boat). And one valve kit sent out...cause of problem...a broken pop valve spring. That's not a bad track record for the General pump durability, its also why I'm confident in giving a 3yr warranty...things just have less chance to break when you keep them simple.

[SV THIRD DAY]

On edit...we have had two engine driven Hp pump failures. But I think they were due to pump/engine mount issues.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Good point because nothing about boats make financial sense.

My father recently sold the yacht he owned with my uncle. He ran the numbers from ownership and worked out that they could have paid for quite a few charters around the world plus the first/business class airfares to get there. I told him I will NEVER do the same number crunching. When it comes to owning a yacht, ignorance is bliss and best.

When I realised I would be stuck in Corfu 2-3 weeks waiting for my mast, I tried to get prices for the Spectra Ventura 200T. Neither the distributor for Greece which was actually based in Cyprus and the UK distributor could be bothered responding to my request. I don't know why they bother having "contact me" on their web sites if they can't even be bother responding. This was even before the current mess in Greece,

It's a lot of money, but as I will be onboard full time, the convenience of not having to go to a dock to refill the tanks will be worth it.

As I type this I'm starting to think I should have tried harder to find someone I can give my money to.


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[Mirage Gecko]

I have owned a 12 volt Spectra and while it was OK and making about 28 ltrs per hour I thought it was good gear and it was my first Watermaker.Then the pump started to leak and I read somewhere on this forum you could get a reman unit for I think $450 USD.However that did not apply outside of the USA and the distributer here in Aus wanted somewhere closer to $2500 and dependant on the condition of the original pump add freight etc etc.I contacted Spectra in the US and all they did was refer me back to the Aus distributer.They are possibly good units but far too expensive in some parts of the world.
My current boat came with a 7 KVA Genny so I now have a 240v portable unit putting out more water in an hour than the 12 volt took nearly all day to make plus we can do the washing,charge the batteries,heat the water,boil the kettle,make toast etc all in an hour and as someone else said just for a few litres of diesel that I would need to use anyway with one of the motors if I want hot water.
If the boat did not have a Genny fitted I would still use a 240 volt unit via a Honda or similar.
We like to be independent so the convenience of not having to go into Marinas to chase water for us far out ways the cost of the watermaker and the means to operate it.
Chris

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko

I have owned a 12 volt Spectra and while it was OK and making about 28 ltrs per hour I thought it was good gear and it was my first Watermaker.Then the pump started to leak and I read somewhere on this forum you could get a reman unit for I think $450 USD.However that did not apply outside of the USA and the distributer here in Aus wanted somewhere closer to $2500 and dependant on the condition of the original pump add freight etc etc.I contacted Spectra in the US and all they did was refer me back to the Aus distributer.They are possibly good units but far too expensive in some parts of the world.
My current boat came with a 7 KVA Genny so I now have a 240v portable unit putting out more water in an hour than the 12 volt took nearly all day to make plus we can do the washing,charge the batteries,heat the water,boil the kettle,make toast etc all in an hour and as someone else said just for a few litres of diesel that I would need to use anyway with one of the motors if I want hot water.
If the boat did not have a Genny fitted I would still use a 240 volt unit via a Honda or similar.
We like to be independent so the convenience of not having to go into Marinas to chase water for us far out ways the cost of the watermaker and the means to operate it.
Chris

That's a problem with a greedy distributor, not Spectra. We ran into the same problem in Spain. Ended up sending the unit back to California ourselves and had it it (actually both) factory rebuilt for $425 each.

[Mirage Gecko]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

That's a problem with a greedy distributor, not Spectra. We ran into the same problem in Spain. Ended up sending the unit back to California ourselves and had it it (actually both) factory rebuilt for $425 each.

Yes possibly a greedy distributor but I was advised the pumps actually went back to the states and was subject to freight etc etc.
But definately a Spectra problem as they would not deal or communicate with me at all and repeatedly referred my Emails
back to the distributer for them to contact me which they did but could or would not match the price. Not really customer service in my opinion.
If a company like Specrtra is not prepared to open their own doors in a country and only appoints a "distributor" then in my eyes that distributor is the companies representative and any good or bad falls under the original company banner and in this case bad and Spectra.Ive taken my money elsewhere.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Tellie

All due respect, this is not true. The Spectra 150/200/330 all can be mounted up to 36" above the waterline without a boost pump. It would be very rare to see the types of boats that would use these system ever have a watermaker that high in the first place. I've installed hundreds of these and have never added a boost pump. And yes the Spectras in this line are a bit north of the OP's 5k number. But the benefits of a bit less than one boat buck far out weigh the initial dollar savings gained.

Yes, the Spectra is a different in this manner because it essentially uses a boost pump as part of its pressure operation, and the Clark pressure booster is not a piston pump and is fairly impervious to pressure drops.

But it is pretty much unique in the field for this. Every other system I have come across recommends, or requires, a boost pump if the HP pump is to be mounted above the waterline.

I agree about spending money to get a good system. However, all I have responded to here is the OP's question about getting a reasonable output watermaker that can run solely off solar for <<$5000.

Everyone with Spectra's and inexpensive low output systems keep challenging me on this and misinterpreting me to have said that there are no watermakers that can run on solar.

But I have yet to see anyone present a system that meets the OP's criteria.

Mark

[Dulcesuenos]

I will sell him my perfectly working cape horn extreme for $4999.99 needs one feed. pump computer fan. 😝

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[colemj]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

The 12v boost pump we use draws 8.3A. Of course you can go for the AC version of the boost pump if you want to keep everything in AC, but here is why I like the DC boost pump...ease of maintenance in fresh water flushing. With a 12v DC boost pump its a piece of cake to manually fresh water flush by turning a valve and pushing a switch on for 3 minutes without the need to start your generator for AC power.

Rich and I have disagreed on the AC/DC boost pump point, and I think I forced him to do a lot of research to supply me with an AC pump that met my needs.

Neither of us are wrong - just different horses on different courses.

In my case, I now have a very rugged sealed AC pump that has no components that see seawater or can wear (March magnetic pump) compared to the impeller-driven DC pumps.

As for offline flushing, I simply connected the house system to the flush valve (I don't even have to push a switch!). Turn the valve and the house pump flushes the system. On the other hand, if I had not done this, the AC pump would only draw 10A DC through the inverter for a minute.

Conversely, the DC boost pump just eats from the batteries at the same time that I am trying to charge them during a generator run or while motoring.

Oh, one more thing - the AC boost pump is dead-quiet. I mean totally silent.

Mark

[monte]

Originally Posted by hoppy

My father recently sold the yacht he owned with my uncle. He ran the numbers from ownership and worked out that they could have paid for quite a few charters around the world plus the first/business class airfares to get there. I told him I will NEVER do the same number crunching. When it comes to owning a yacht, ignorance is bliss and best.

When I realised I would be stuck in Corfu 2-3 weeks waiting for my mast, I tried to get prices for the Spectra Ventura 200T. Neither the distributor for Greece which was actually based in Cyprus and the UK distributor could be bothered responding to my request. I don't know why they bother having "contact me" on their web sites if they can't even be bother responding. This was even before the current mess in Greece,

It's a lot of money, but as I will be onboard full time, the convenience of not having to go to a dock to refill the tanks will be worth it.

As I type this I'm starting to think I should have tried harder to find someone I can give my money to.


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Hoppy, from my experience spectra are unfortunately very expensive in Europe. Freight and tax charges I guess. The Ventura 200T is likely to be around $6000 in the USA and closer to $8000 in Europe.
We went with another energy recovery type made in France and are very happy with it
http://www.slce.net/index_gb.php?p=1470&gamme=12
The other mentioned earlier in the thread looks interesting as well, made in Barcelona
http://www.eco-sistems.com/en/
Seems cheap and easy to install with good efficiency. Maybe ask the OP about his experience with it.

[Bulawayo]

Originally Posted by colemj

Rich and I have disagreed on the AC/DC boost pump point, and I think I forced him to do a lot of research to supply me with an AC pump that met my needs.

Neither of us are wrong - just different horses on different courses.

In my case, I now have a very rugged sealed AC pump that has no components that see seawater or can wear (March magnetic pump) compared to the impeller-driven DC pumps.

As for offline flushing, I simply connected the house system to the flush valve (I don't even have to push a switch!). Turn the valve and the house pump flushes the system. On the other hand, if I had not done this, the AC pump would only draw 10A DC through the inverter for a minute.

Conversely, the DC boost pump just eats from the batteries at the same time that I am trying to charge them during a generator run or while motoring.

Oh, one more thing - the AC boost pump is dead-quiet. I mean totally silent.

Mark

Hello Mark, Dont keep us all in suspense - what water maker have you? what is the power source /requirement? output? reliability? simplicity? capital cost? 40" membrane? etc.
Cheers.