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Old 11-07-2015, 13:14   #91
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

If you own a Spectra water maker...
Are thinking about buying a Spectra water maker...
Are looking to buy a used Spectra water maker...
Or even if you just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

You would be absolutely CRAZY to not write down JT's (Tellie's) phone number in your ships log book for when you need it. You just don't get his level of service and knowledge from your dock neighbor that heard a rumor from his sisters best friend that had a second cousin that did a circumnavigation back in 1973! And trust me...I spend a LOT of my customer service time dispelling BS myths that clients were told from their dock buddy expert. My favorite is that Urine is a good pickling reagent for your membrane....no kidding....it happened just last week, while I was fielding calls from "vacation" in Italy! Good thing I as touring the Vatican at the time because that one made me light a candle in church.


I've said it before and it's important enough to say again anytime the "what is the best water maker" thread pops up every 6 months or so.

When it comes to the 12v DC vs 120V AC water maker decision all comes down to YOU and how YOU intend to set up and run YOUR boat. What worked well for one cruiser may suck for another...know-thyself and YOUR boat.

Remember what is the difference between lets say a Spectra and Cruise RO water maker?
It's all about the Hp Pump baby...how do you get sea water flow at 800PSI? Energy efficiently by a energy recovery pump OR a brute force energy hog piston pump?
Boil it all down to basic engineering and that's it...that is the difference. Oh now hold on...stop the name calling....Yes there are some electronic control and feature differences, but lets boil it down to the bottom line engineering...and it's all about the Hp Pump.

12v DC:
If you want to be a Solar/Wind boat with no generator, then it's an easy Choice...Spectra with the energy recovery pump. You are not going to be happy with a power hog piston pump running on 12v DC. Oh sure a few companies make them, but most people that go this route really don't understanding what 30-40A DC will do to their battery bank (LiFePO4 battery bank excluded) until they get out there living on the hook and then have that "oh ****" moment. Their water maker use then gets limited to when they are running their engine with alternator spinning making power or they are not the "normal" boat and have like a 1200W solar array. That's the problem in taking advice. A guy with a 1200W solar array will brag about how he can easily run his 40A DC water maker all day long to a cruiser in planning that barely has room for 260W of solar on his boat.

120v AC:
If you have a ships generator or a Honda 2000 then to me it's an easy choice to go with the high output 120v AC water maker. The higher the better so you can make all the water you need within your generator run time 2-3 times a week. Making 33-37GPH from a $5250 water maker that is robust and simple while you were already running the generator for battery charging, cooking, air conditioning, washing machine, or electric distillation of Rum anyway is the mindset. There is no real need for a "sales pitch" to this approach, it either makes sense to YOU and how YOU are going to set up and run YOUR boat or it doesn't.


Now you could pay $15,000 easy for that same 33-37GPH of production flow and have the water maker connect to the internet, control it with your Ipad or smart phone and there certainly is a market for those machines...it's just not my market. Offering an automatic fresh water flush option is about as far as I want to take the electronic controls. It's not that we can't build them, I just don't want to. Why...because I'm the guy that takes the phone calls, emails, Skype, and texts 7 days a week and I'm just not going to screw myself, I have better things to do than dealing with a pissed off client because his proprietary circuit board died. Heck I live aboard a boat and at the moment took a break from stripping off the awlgrip/walnut shell nonskid in prep for KiwiGrip to make this post, my beer is gone so.....now back to work!
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Old 11-07-2015, 13:17   #92
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Also, all bets are off regarding finding a used system. Of course one might fill the requirements this way, but it wasn't what the OP asked, one may have to search for a long time, and one may get a pig in a poke - particularly if one does not have much experience with these systems. And there will not be any warranty or service help (Tellie and Rich excerpted, of course).

Mark
Plenty of service help from Spectra, Tellie and Rich on a used unit. A factory rebuilt Clark pump comes with a warranty. All you need is the used components, replace the feed pumps, new membrane, new filters and you're good to go.

No pig poking. :-)
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Old 11-07-2015, 13:31   #93
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
The sailfish site is very expensive for new and used WMs. Note the price on the manufacturers site is 3000 euros, not pounds. About 3300 usd I guess.
The basic aquabase model is around 5000 ex vat.
You would need to do your homework regarding quality on the eco sistems. It's a new company and doesn't have the proven track record of satisfied customers for reliability, warranty and repair that spectra has. Spectra is pretty much flawless with their product, design, quality, after sales service and customer satisfaction
Hello Monte,
Eco-Sistems have been in operation for 15 years and actually seem to have a pretty good reputation.
Spectre, according to their website, have been manufacturing ocean going water makers since the late '90's whilst the parent company is in the order of 30 years old.
I identified Sailfish as I have met people that bought warrantied used WM's from them. I am sure that their prices can be beaten but they seem to have a good supply of used equipment - the fact that they have a high turn-over of stock speaks for itself. The fact that they have warranties is also not to be sneezed at.
I am sure you have read the comments of some dissatisfaction associated with Spectre products on this very thread.
Incidently, I have a Spectre myself and have not experienced any issues and it is still on my preferred equipment list. However, I have now learned of other products, thanks to this forum, that I want to check out - yours being one of them, so thank you.
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Old 11-07-2015, 13:39   #94
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

What about the 12 volt Echo Tec water makers?? Anyone here have any experience with them one way or another. Claim is 8.5 gallons per hr using 19.8 amps per hour.
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Old 11-07-2015, 13:40   #95
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
If you own a Spectra water maker...
Are thinking about buying a Spectra water maker...
Are looking to buy a used Spectra water maker...
Or even if you just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

You would be absolutely CRAZY to not write down JT's (Tellie's) phone number in your ships log book for when you need it. You just don't get his level of service and knowledge from your dock neighbor that heard a rumor from his sisters best friend that had a second cousin that did a circumnavigation back in 1973! And trust me...I spend a LOT of my customer service time dispelling BS myths that clients were told from their dock buddy expert. My favorite is that Urine is a good pickling reagent for your membrane....no kidding....it happened just last week, while I was fielding calls from "vacation" in Italy! Good thing I as touring the Vatican at the time because that one made me light a candle in church.


I've said it before and it's important enough to say again anytime the "what is the best water maker" thread pops up every 6 months or so.

When it comes to the 12v DC vs 120V AC water maker decision all comes down to YOU and how YOU intend to set up and run YOUR boat. What worked well for one cruiser may suck for another...know-thyself and YOUR boat.

Remember what is the difference between lets say a Spectra and Cruise RO water maker?
It's all about the Hp Pump baby...how do you get sea water flow at 800PSI? Energy efficiently by a energy recovery pump OR a brute force energy hog piston pump?
Boil it all down to basic engineering and that's it...that is the difference. Oh now hold on...stop the name calling....Yes there are some electronic control and feature differences, but lets boil it down to the bottom line engineering...and it's all about the Hp Pump.

12v DC:
If you want to be a Solar/Wind boat with no generator, then it's an easy Choice...Spectra with the energy recovery pump. You are not going to be happy with a power hog piston pump running on 12v DC. Oh sure a few companies make them, but most people that go this route really don't understanding what 30-40A DC will do to their battery bank (LiFePO4 battery bank excluded) until they get out there living on the hook and then have that "oh ****" moment. Their water maker use then gets limited to when they are running their engine with alternator spinning making power or they are not the "normal" boat and have like a 1200W solar array. That's the problem in taking advice. A guy with a 1200W solar array will brag about how he can easily run his 40A DC water maker all day long to a cruiser in planning that barely has room for 260W of solar on his boat.

120v AC:
If you have a ships generator or a Honda 2000 then to me it's an easy choice to go with the high output 120v AC water maker. The higher the better so you can make all the water you need within your generator run time 2-3 times a week. Making 33-37GPH from a $5250 water maker that is robust and simple while you were already running the generator for battery charging, cooking, air conditioning, washing machine, or electric distillation of Rum anyway is the mindset. There is no real need for a "sales pitch" to this approach, it either makes sense to YOU and how YOU are going to set up and run YOUR boat or it doesn't.


Now you could pay $15,000 easy for that same 33-37GPH of production flow and have the water maker connect to the internet, control it with your Ipad or smart phone and there certainly is a market for those machines...it's just not my market. Offering an automatic fresh water flush option is about as far as I want to take the electronic controls. It's not that we can't build them, I just don't want to. Why...because I'm the guy that takes the phone calls, emails, Skype, and texts 7 days a week and I'm just not going to screw myself, I have better things to do than dealing with a pissed off client because his proprietary circuit board died. Heck I live aboard a boat and at the moment took a break from stripping off the awlgrip/walnut shell nonskid in prep for KiwiGrip to make this post, my beer is gone so.....now back to work!
Rich, We have said solar panel array - 3x345watt plus 2x110watt; we dont normally brag about it but am entitled to do so if I wish.
Our Spectre WM draws around 16amps, I think......we dont concern ourselves too much as besides the the solar we have also D400 wind generators as well (now is the time we can brag, brag, brag about our power). Its no different to those with integral generators and air-conditioning, which we dont have.
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Old 11-07-2015, 14:38   #96
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
What about the 12 volt Echo Tec water makers?? Anyone here have any experience with them one way or another. Claim is 8.5 gallons per hr using 19.8 amps per hour.

Sure, have worked on many and they work. But I'm going to be looked at as biased which of course is natural. But the devil is in the details as they say and here are just a few.
First off the energy is the biggest key 19.8 amps per 8.5 gallons per hour equate to 2.3amps per gallon made for the Echo Tec. That is considered in the 12Volt world to be very inefficient. Especially when a Spectra will do the same production at half the amps or 10 amps an hour for the same amount of water made. The cost in US dollars for an Echo-Tec seems a bit cheaper at first, around $450 less, until you have to buy a boost pump and a fresh water flush system as extras and a Spectra doesn't even need the boost pump and the fresh water flush kit is standard on all Spectras. Plus the installation kit for any Spectra is a lot better, it includes everything you'll need except the two thru hulls and the electrical feed to the system, chances are good you'll have stuff left over. Look at the Echo Tecs installation kit. It is a bit anemic with only ten foot braided hoses and twenty feet of product tube. All you will have accomplished is spend the same if not more money on a system that is twice as inefficient. It makes no financial sense especially when you consider your charging capabilities will be twice as taxed and recharging your batteries will take twice as much effort for the water made.


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Old 11-07-2015, 14:56   #97
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

Thanks for your feedback
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Old 11-07-2015, 15:23   #98
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
I am the the authorized dealer and service provider for Spectra in the Florida Keys. Not sure what company you had a bad dealing with Belizesailor, but I have been in place now just under a year.

RK Marine Service
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It was not you. This happened in 2004 in Marathon. I would gladly post their name all over CF, but this is against the rules. Should not be hard to figure out though. Don't know whether they are still in business.
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Old 11-07-2015, 15:33   #99
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
<snip>
In my case, I now have a very rugged sealed AC pump that has no components that see seawater or can wear (March magnetic pump) compared to the impeller-driven DC pumps.
<snip>
Oh, one more thing - the AC boost pump is dead-quiet. I mean totally silent.
Mark
March magnetic drive pumps look like a very good low maintenance pumps for many applications, and they also have DC up to 8 GPM. Might have to consider location in relation to compass and heading sensors.

Search Our Pumps | March Pump | March Manufacturing Inc.

Some can even pump hot oil through your deep fryer, LOL.

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Old 11-07-2015, 15:45   #100
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Well since I am the only distributor for the Florida Keys as well you did not speak with me or my official dealer at all. This is not really your fault because there is a business in Marathon, that has to be unnamed here for board rules, that IS NOT, I repeat NOT a Spectra distributor or dealer for me period. That particular problem has been handled, but sometimes it still crops it's ugly head. The only legitimate dealer in the Florida Keys is RK Marine our own CF member Dulcesuenos. He is capable of handling anything Spectra need you have. If he is unavailable I always am.

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It was neither you nor RK. I sincerely hope no one interpreted my comment that way, but if I post the name it will just be deleted.

Besides it appears the problem has resolved itself. In 2004 they did have some form of relationship with Spectra. I don't know the legal details of their relationship, but Spectra gave them a credit for $500 of warranty work for which they had already collected from me.
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Old 11-07-2015, 16:10   #101
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
What about the 12 volt Echo Tec water makers?? Anyone here have any experience with them one way or another. Claim is 8.5 gallons per hr using 19.8 amps per hour.

EchoTec's a good company with a good reputation.....but....

I just can't see the logic burning 20A DC for 8.5GPH when I could get the same 8.5GPH from a Spectra unit for less than 1/2 the power and have the reality (rather than just the dream) of actually running my water maker off wind and solar. I just know WAY to many cruisers that didn't realize what 20A being sucked from their battery for 2hrs means in terms of battery life and voltage drops. Look, the whole reason I'm not a 12v DC water maker fan is because with most cruisers I saw/see at anchor, I know they are making water because I see their engine running even to keep up with the 8A or 14A power draw to make the amounts of water they really need. Of course there are the cruisers with plenty of solar, but folks, they are not the norm. People don't sit around in anchorages over drinks talking about how their batteries are always topped up by Noon and they have extra power to spare. The normal every day cruiser conversation is how they are struggling to keep up with the ships power demands. Sure...the solution is more solar...but if they have no more room...then what? What turns into running their engine at anchor or a Honda 2000 generator or they go into the Marina to plug into shore power. It's not a knock on the 12v DC units, it's just what I saw/see out in the anchorages where cost pushed people into the lower output 12v Dc unit, but then they have to run it all day long to meet their water needs. And running it all day long sucked their batteries down.

Let me put it this way.
We use the same General Pump as Echoteh and sure, I could bolt a 12v or 24v DC motor to it and sell them, just like Echotec but I don't. When people call me and ask me if I will do it for them, I typically just give them Echotec's website and pass them along to the competition. In fairness I have done a few for people with 24v DC generators and special cases where it made sense. But for most people without a huge solar array (not normal) or LiFePO4 batteries (not normal) it's Fools Gold to think you can run a energy Hog piston pump from Batteries/Wind/Solar and be happy about it.

A problem is that people with the "exception to the Norm" give advice that works for them, as if every mono-hull can have a 1200W solar array or LiFePO4 batteries. I called it bragging earlier only in jest, it's GREAT...I LOVE it....hell...I have a 400Ah LiFePO4 battery bank with 1300W of solar and a KISS wind gen for Heavens sake, I'm a power whore with no regard for how much I use anymore! I can easily run my 120V AC water maker using 9.3A AC from my solar/wind/battery bank. I actually make hot water from solar with my 1500W hot water heater....but what does that mean for the average cruiser? Should I take my Abnormal Situation of Solar and Batteries and sell my water maker as something that can be realistically ran on wind/solar/batteries and then say:

"oh ****...sorry. I knew your system would cause you heartache and not do what you thought it would, but didn't you read the fine print. When I said I did it, didn't you read the part about me being a power whore"?

No, that's not me. In addition to being way to much of a smart ass, which I try to work on....really I do, I want people to know exactly the strengths and weaknesses of the 120v AC and 12v DC water maker approach and then they can make their own choices based on how their boat is set up. I've sent many a cruiser over to Spectra over the years and will continue to do so for those that don't have or want a generator on board to run a piston pump style water maker.

Managing people's expectations is a VERY important part of customer service even if it means I talk someone out of what I have to sell. Some of the best sales I have made have NOT been sales at all, but talking them out of trying to use our water maker in a way that I know just will cause them (and then Me) headaches.

Now just one last time so that no one misunderstands....
I am NOT knocking Echotec, Spectra, 12v DC energy recovery, or 12v piston pump energy hogs, or people that have lots of solar and can do almost anything they want power wize and love to post and talk about it. What I'm trying to do and say is that you HAVE to understand the entire big picture. It's a whole boat system approach in making a water maker decision where "I did this" and "a buddy did that" only makes sense if the entire story is told and understood, something that sometimes gets a little lost on internet advice sites because not everyone is looking to dodge a boat project like me and happy to droll on and on about his favorite topic....water makers.....no back to deck stripping.
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Old 11-07-2015, 16:11   #102
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
It was neither you nor RK. I sincerely hope no one interpreted my comment that way, but if I post the name it will just be deleted.

Besides it appears the problem has resolved itself. In 2004 they did have some form of relationship with Spectra. I don't know the legal details of their relationship, but Spectra gave them a credit for $500 of warranty work for which they had already collected from me.

I know who they are. They worked on my boat because my spectra was under warranty. I called the owner and demanded he send another tech out as the one on the boat was frustrated trying to remove an o-ring with a large screw driver from its plastic seat while sitting all his weight on my plastic though hull.
They also were the factory authorized service center for my nextgen generator so had to deal with scratched gel coat where the 2X4 that the come along was attached to slid around un protected on the deck.
Good to hear spectra has someone else nowadays.


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Old 11-07-2015, 16:24   #103
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

I would be keen to hear more about the eco sistems water maker and the ceramic pump sounds good. Anyone??
Water makers are so expensive down here in Australia.
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Old 11-07-2015, 16:29   #104
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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First off the energy is the biggest key 19.8 amps per 8.5 gallons per hour
You forgot to mention that this 19.8A/8.5gph is at 13.8V+.

This is the real dirty secret about DC watermakers - they are spec'd out at charging voltages, not nominal voltages.

At lower than charging voltages, the output drops considerably. For example, our previous Village Marine DC system was spec'd for 6.25gph and took 17A to produce that. Here are the numbers with new membrane and 80F water temp (this is voltage at the watermaker terminals):
14.3V 6.2gph
13.8V 5.7gph
12.8V 5.5gph
12.4V 5.3gph

So if you are not running your DC watermaker concurrent with a charging source that has the batteries into absorption mode, then you are losing up to 15-20% of the rated output.

Now extrapolate that down to something small like a Katydyne 35 and it will struggle to make 1gph.

To me, the ONLY DC watermaker that makes sense is an energy-recovery one. Spectra is the big name here, but there are a couple of others - mostly European.

Boats with giant passive charging sources like Bulawayo excepted, of course. His example is a rare one, but even he has an energy-recovery unit!

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Old 11-07-2015, 16:43   #105
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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What about the 12 volt Echo Tec water makers?? Anyone here have any experience with them one way or another. Claim is 8.5 gallons per hr using 19.8 amps per hour.
My 200T makes about that much water for about 40% of the power (depending on water temp and maybe moon phase or something for all I know). If I had room for more solar I might have a bigger watermaker, but I'd still be looking primarily at gallons per amp-hour.

If I had to run an engine anyway, I'd have the biggest direct-drive pump or AC system I could. That equipment is relatively cheap, so why NOT have the capacity to make ridiculous amounts of water? If you're running an engine or generator anyway, a freshwater toilet, unlimited washdown, ability to fill the dinghy and give the kids a bath every night..... sounds pretty cool to me!

I don't quite get the market niche of something like the Echo Tec. 5/6 the cost (assuming it comes with a great install kit like Spectra) to burn lots of juice for not much water - why?
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