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Old 30-10-2015, 20:46   #271
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
This isn't a Spectra thing...it's a thing that any/every manufacturer of any/every product here in the United States will be dealing with in the next 10yrs.
You are correct. There is downward pressure from China across all industries. I was just using Spectra as an example. Sorry Tellie!

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But remember what the experts said that about Japan, until Japan crashed. Anyone that thinks China doesn't have major problems that make the USA's problems look like a cake walk, hasn't been paying attention.
You are correct about this too except one thing. China controls the vast majority of rare earth metals used for high tech manufacturing and has some of the worlds largest oil reserves. So, yes, they will experience the economic up/downs just like we do but unless the dollar suddenly crashes below the yen....

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Iphone..Oh ya, I have one or two people at every boat show that want to control their water maker from their Iphone or Ipad...I do the only sane thing and send those folks over to Tellie's booth pronto....
Wow! you can DO that? Sign me up!
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Old 30-10-2015, 22:11   #272
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Actually stu I meant amps per gallon it draws just over 60 ah with a production of approx 57 gpd leave your semantics out of my posts please
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Old 31-10-2015, 01:03   #273
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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That water maker is not in any way efficient I did the math and at an approx 30 amps per gallon on 12 volt I don't see to much market share going that way.

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Actually stu I meant amps per gallon it draws just over 60 ah with a production of approx 57 gpd leave your semantics out of my posts please
You are not making any sense at all. And because of your confusion over units, your calculations are wrong.

Amps per gallon is a meaningless unit. It's like trying to make sense of 10 knots per gallon for an engine.

Looking at the specs of that watermaker, it draws a maximum of 67 Amps (so let's stick with your 60) and is capable of a maximum of 300 lpd or 80 US gallons per day (but let's stick with your 57).


So it would require 1,440 Amp hrs (60 x 24) to produce 57 gallons in a day. or 25 Amp hrs per gallon.

(Or 18 Ah per gallon based on the 300 litre/80 gallons per day)

It's not semantics. It's Basic Electricity 101. I really do suggest you look at that link.
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Old 31-10-2015, 02:42   #274
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
You are not making any sense at all. And because of your confusion over units, your calculations are wrong.

Amps per gallon is a meaningless unit. It's like trying to make sense of 10 knots per gallon for an engine.

Looking at the specs of that watermaker, it draws a maximum of 67 Amps (so let's stick with your 60) and is capable of a maximum of 300 lpd or 80 US gallons per day (but let's stick with your 57).


So it would require 1,440 Amp hrs (60 x 24) to produce 57 gallons in a day. or 25 Amp hrs per gallon.

(Or 18 Ah per gallon based on the 300 litre/80 gallons per day)

It's not semantics. It's Basic Electricity 101. I really do suggest you look at that link.
I looked at the specs again and they don't say anything at all in one spot they say max amp draw is 70 amp at 12v and next it says power required is 600 watts and last it says 67 amps. I will admit I was incorrect and caffine deficient. The only power requirement that we can work with is the 600 watts which is 40 amps at 12 volts nominal
Which means 960 ah for the approx 60 gallon water output. And approx 16 ah per gallon at 12v nom. Dependant on water temperature. YMMV
Still my point is the same this water maker is expensive to run. ( power wise.)
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Old 31-10-2015, 04:19   #275
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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The only power requirement that we can work with is the 600 watts which is 40 amps at 12 volts nominal
Which means 960 ah for the approx 60 gallon water output. And approx 16 ah per gallon at 12v nom. Dependant on water temperature. YMMV
Still my point is the same this water maker is expensive to run. ( power wise.)
Actually 600 Watts @ 12V nominal is 50 Amps
Which mean 1200 Ah for 60 gallons or 20Ah per gallon - so it's even more expensive!
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Old 31-10-2015, 05:06   #276
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Well yes... thats really the point of introducing low end competition. It's increasingly difficult for a company like Spectra to legitimize costs that are 3x that of the competition, even if the competition is facing low ROI. We face this in IT all day. Consumers will almost always choose the cheaper option when you cannot articulate why you charge so much more. As the Chinese get better at articulating their position, you will find it more difficult to sell yours. If history is any indication, the Chinese will get exponentially faster as understanding the market and providing a solid value proposition in the watermaker market.

What is "good enough" vs. "the best"?

90% of consumers will go for the "good enough". The average guy buying a boat these days could care less about watermakers at $6000... the 300K boat he just bought will sit at the dock most of the year fine without it.

But when Hunter says "we can put a watermaker on your boat for $1500"? Well, that is a no-brainer.

That leaves long range cruisers that have the money for a 50+ foot brand new boat that don't care about price, they will buy "the best". That's a small market.

The boats in the 40-50 foot range with tankage over 200ish (size for discussion sake) gallons will care less about watermakers because of the growing availability of cheap fresh water pretty much everywhere.

That leaves those folks with boats 35-50 feet that do not have 200 gallons of water wondering... "how much better is the $6000 spectra water maker? Is it that much better than the Chinese $2000 watermaker"?

"How much better exactly?"

If what I see this season in Chinese solar panels here in Florida -where pretty much everyone is considering or is buying cheap panels from Alibaba- is indicative of the change we could see happening in watermakers... I cannot see how Spectra could keep their current business viable in the next 10 years.

Interesting post but to follow your conclusion you would have to expect that Spectras current business example is and has remained the same as it was even five years ago. It is not. Even if China were to finally build a Clark pump and sell it at a 2/3 the current cost by that time they would be and actually are now behind the in the current technology. Think 75 gallons per hour at 1200Watts and 125 gallons per hour at 1500Watts now and improving. Even the Clark pump can't get near that. Secondly, boat based watermakers to the major players in the watermaker business is an ever shrinking percentage of their business. We've just seen in the past two years a major corporation buy up three main players in the watermaker business and basically tell the boat based customers to go pound sand. Perhaps this is the way more watermaker companies will go as they pursue easier and larger profits outside of the boat based systems. Spectras next 10 year business outlook is pretty good and I see them doing great progressive things in this industry that will greatly benefit the world. My personal feelings about China aside, good luck to them if they do take this on. In my most humble opinion, I know these systems as well as anybody, and even if I were to put my personal values and ethics aside I wouldn't be willing to invest any time or money in such a plan. Spectra has, as have others currently in this business, understands that investing heavily in the personal service end of the business is what it truly takes to sustain this business. This service perhaps even over the product is what has sustained the boat based business. I'm afraid when all would be said and done that the end customer would be more likely to be buying from China a pig in a poke.

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Old 31-10-2015, 05:23   #277
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post

Iphone..Oh ya, I have one or two people at every boat show that want to control their water maker from their Iphone or Ipad...I do the only sane thing and send those folks over to Tellie's booth pronto....
LOL, Oh great, thanks a lot, such a Pal.
Just wait until the next guy who wants to build his own watermaker by hanging a 50 gallon bag of salt water from the top of his mast stops by my booth, I've got your cards.

I have been meaning to call you but we've been crazy busy since Annapolis. Hope all is well with you. We'll talk before Ft. Lauderdale.

Best Regards
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Old 31-10-2015, 06:58   #278
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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LOL, Oh great, thanks a lot, such a Pal.
Just wait until the next guy who wants to build his own watermaker by hanging a 50 gallon bag of salt water from the top of his mast stops by my booth, I've got your cards.

I have been meaning to call you but we've been crazy busy since Annapolis. Hope all is well with you. We'll talk before Ft. Lauderdale.

Best Regards
J.T.
Careful Tellie...

I hear Rich has a new "turbo boost" button option.... powered by some secret new energy source...

Might put a fairly large dent in your sales data...
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Old 31-10-2015, 07:03   #279
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Spectra has, as have others currently in this business, understands that investing heavily in the personal service end of the business is what it truly takes to sustain this business. This service perhaps even over the product is what has sustained the boat based business. I'm afraid when all would be said and done that the end customer would be more likely to be buying from China a pig in a poke.
This is where both you and Rich excel. Both of you have dedication to service that is your differentiator!

I see people arguing over the watermaker I posted.

This is unfortunate because I just randomly selected one design out of hundreds that are available on Alibaba. It wasn't my wish to discuss the merits of this single watermaker but to provide an example of how easily available Chinese made goods are these days and at prices without middlemen. About how easy it is to order something at low cost and have it delivered "anywhere" in the world in 3 days for $125.

The Chinese are very very quick learners. They do have problems with graft but it's going to be hard holding back a billion people hungry for money.

As far as the BEST watermakers (as measured by price/performance) you are still better off with Spectra or CruiserRO.
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Old 31-10-2015, 08:13   #280
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Careful Tellie...

I hear Rich has a new "turbo boost" button option.... powered by some secret new energy source...

Might put a fairly large dent in your sales data...
Ha, just wait until he sees that, you're going to be in for it.

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Old 31-10-2015, 08:26   #281
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Ha, just wait until he sees that, you're going to be in for it.

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Old 31-10-2015, 08:31   #282
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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This is where both you and Rich excel. Both of you have dedication to service that is your differentiator!

I see people arguing over the watermaker I posted.

This is unfortunate because I just randomly selected one design out of hundreds that are available on Alibaba. It wasn't my wish to discuss the merits of this single watermaker but to provide an example of how easily available Chinese made goods are these days and at prices without middlemen. About how easy it is to order something at low cost and have it delivered "anywhere" in the world in 3 days for $125.

The Chinese are very very quick learners. They do have problems with graft but it's going to be hard holding back a billion people hungry for money.

As far as the BEST watermakers (as measured by price/performance) you are still better off with Spectra or CruiserRO.
Thanks for the compliments zboss. I agree Rich is one of the great ones as well. I understood well your point you were making on the watermaker you linked to. To argue the numbers given on that unit is silly because just looking at that unit shown and the reported numbers given below it I can tell they are way off. Probably most is lost in translation. Debating it's abilities based on wrong numbers is moot. But your point was well taken.

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Old 31-10-2015, 08:47   #283
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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I try to be an equal opportunity joker.... The majority however usually ends up at my expense...
Plus... It was only 4AM in Rich's neighborhood when I posted it... I was thinking I could zip outta here before he got his coffee goin'

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Thanks for the compliments zboss. I agree Rich is one of the great ones as well. I understood well your point you were making on the watermaker you linked to. To argue the numbers given on that unit is silly because just looking at that unit shown and the reported numbers given below it I can tell they are way off. Probably most is lost in translation. Debating it's abilities based on wrong numbers is moot. But your point was well taken.

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Absolutely no way you can trust data on Alibaba... Unless of course you think Tellie and I are rockstar-chippendale-trust fund playboys...
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Old 31-10-2015, 10:13   #284
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Originally Posted by zboss View Post
This is where both you and Rich excel. Both of you have dedication to service that is your differentiator!

I see people arguing over the watermaker I posted.

This is unfortunate because I just randomly selected one design out of hundreds that are available on Alibaba. It wasn't my wish to discuss the merits of this single watermaker but to provide an example of how easily available Chinese made goods are these days and at prices without middlemen. About how easy it is to order something at low cost and have it delivered "anywhere" in the world in 3 days for $125.

The Chinese are very very quick learners. They do have problems with graft but it's going to be hard holding back a billion people hungry for money.

As far as the BEST watermakers (as measured by price/performance) you are still better off with Spectra or CruiserRO.
I did get your point heck I have installed many of those cheap Chinese panels and led lights they are lots.cheaper. also I have found that they have lots of various products already shipped into the united states and warehoused to ship even faster to meet the rising demand.
Sorry wasn't arguing the merits of a single water maker I just wanted to point out the higher energy cost of the system in keeping with the spirit of the thread title the " argueing ". Was stuM and his pet peeve about the varied use of measurements like amps and ah and all that. Again my apologies for what ended as a derailment .
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Old 31-10-2015, 11:11   #285
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Re: Fresh water makers best price and performance?

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Plus... It was only 4AM in Rich's neighborhood when I posted it... I was thinking I could zip outta here before he got his coffee goin'.
Good thing I turned my cell phone off last night or that would have been one funny wake up email notification from the Cruisers Forum...ha ha ha...
Hi Ho Hi Ho...off to finish my boat's bottom paint today I go....
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