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Old 20-03-2006, 15:58   #16
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desalnation

from; Biochem/Electrostatics R&D
sagemillionn@gmail.com 808-965-1855
HVAC machanical engneer
we completed a desalination system yesterday here is the baseline cost
power survivor 40e $2100. shiping $93
U/V (30mj/cm2) unit $180.
thruhole fitings $200.
pluming parts $310
5.5 hours @ $45 an hour
Iam sure the average shipyard hourly charge will be the times the hours . we dont have a ship yard in hilo hawaii. sowe have to eather transport 30 miles to my shop at great cost or do retros on a boat trailer on a side street. our portable shop makes the cost cuts posible for clients . its just not totaly legal as the state does not get their share.
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Old 11-05-2006, 08:14   #17
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Question Pricing, efficiency

Quote:
Originally Posted by salvor
power survivor 40e $2100. shiping $93
U/V (30mj/cm2) unit $180.
I'm wondering where you found your PUR40E. That's significantly lower than my shopping has produced. At that price I might consider one. However, I understand from talking with my electrical guy, who's a fan of watermakers, that they are very costly in electrical use (lots of amps/gallon), and that Spectra currently (pardon the expression) seems to be the efficiency winner. Still, at their 1.4A/G, I find that high given my electrical budget. OTOH, on a windy day, the overage from the KISS would power it - we just can't depend on that.

Also wondering what "U/V (30mj/cm2) unit $180" is. Sounds like an ultraviolet treament?

I have an available hole in my hull for water, and an available large filter, or I could just tee off my salt water washdown feed, and run the effluent into my cockpit scupper drain, conveniently located nearby, and where my bilge pumps discharge.

So, I'm thinking...

Thanks for any assistance...


L8R

Skip

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Old 11-05-2006, 11:38   #18
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Update:

We ended up buying a belt driven watermaker from Echotec http://www.ech2otec.com/ in Trinidad. It cost us less than $4200 with all the options, for a 20gal/hour system, shipped to Florida.
We paid another $600 to have a local welder custom-build the platform/bracket to install the high pressure pump on our Yanmar engine: he did a very nice job.

All is now in place, we just need to leave the marina to test the system in clean waters.

Support from Echotec is very good: you can call them for free for any installation question, using Skype on internet. If you install it yourself, as we did, you'll have questions, as the instructions a little short.

Cheers,
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Old 11-05-2006, 13:07   #19
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watermaker

Greetings, we are sorry for not staying in touch with all you sailors. Iam building my boat and researching my new engineering venture in the south Pacific.
we will post our research on watermakers in less than 24 hours on this thread.
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Old 11-05-2006, 15:44   #20
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update to my post - long

This is what I said to the guy who's building rutu (cited earlier in this thread), and his response, and my counter-response:

Hi, Glenn,

The watermaker question has nibbled its way back into my consciousness...

My electrical contractor is very confident that we should be very
comfortable with our electrical budget, in general. On his boat, whenever
the wind was piping, and the batteries charged, he'd run his watermaker. In
our case, there's a diversion to the hot water heater's dual element. I'm
discovering that the water is *very* hot, and, more, I don't use but the
least amount, now, when I'm showering, as the outside temps start going
tropical. So, likely we'll not use much hot water, either, in our cruising,
particularly since our deck shower is cold only.

Back to the story, however, I saw your website mentioned in a watermaker
discussion in cruisers and sailing forums' website, which got me thinking,
again. The discussion was mostly about build vs buy, and the cost in money,
not amps, or 12 vs 110volt.

I think I recall your system as being pretty massive, and running off your
pto unit at the front of your engine or genset? Or was it PTO to be both
genset and water?

Anyway, whichever it is, I'm wondering about your thoughts for our boat.
PUR40E seems about the least expensive you can buy, but doesn't make very
much water, and at a very expensive amp/gallon cost. Spectra (various
models) seems to be the most efficient, but even so, ~1.5A/G seems like it
would be very expensive on the electrical budget, limiting water generation
to only high wind days. And, of course, the cost of a Spectra is
breathtaking. My current water usage, intentionally profligate in order to
fully flush the tanks and lines and keep stuff fresh, is about 15G/D.
However, I have very little dishwashing, which might change the equation a
bit, and having Lydia and the occasional guest aboard might make that about
equal out, on average. OTOH, if we had essentially unlimited water, we
might change our salt washdown to fresh, and some other accommodations to
luxury :{))

With my salt water washdown, or another of the ER TH currently blocked, I
have salt intake, and could run the effluent out the same port as the bilges
(the cockpit scuppers). If I teed off the salt wash, I could even use the
prefilter that has (the one which used to filter the AC) lots of capacity.
Currently the ER shelves are unpopulated except for the shower pump, and so
I'd have a variety of places to put stuff if I needed.

If I were to make a 12V unit, sized, I'd think, to make something on the
order of 4 or more G/H, as I can't expect we'd have a reliable generation
for more than 4 hours a day, what would you expect for the A/G costs, and
what would you suggest for the components?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip


> Skip,
>
> There is no easy answer. I went with an engine driven high pressure pump
> because I want a lot of water and even my 900 AH banks with 2 140W solar
> panels are not enough to run a big watermaker and keep up the refrigerator
> by themselves.
>
> First of all, if you plan to hang around St. Thomas for a few years it may
> not be worth the investment. Water is available at all the marinas in
> Charlotte Amalie and Red Hook for about 5 cents/gallon. However, leaving
> your mooring every few days to fill the tanks can be a hassle. The parts
> for a simple system will cost you about $2K. Not as fancy as mine but
> very
> serviceable.
>
> What is the average output of your solar panels and/or wind generator at
> say
> 10-12 knots? You will need to plan on about 80 AH minimum to make 14-16
> gallons.
>
> The PUR system is intended to run for hours on end to produce any usable
> amount but I think it is more efficient to make a lot of water quickly.
> All
> of the R/O makers give figures for brand new membranes which is
> misleading.
> They push the membranes to beyond maximum and the output quickly drops to
> around 85% or less of what they claim. Think more about running the R/O
> system for maybe 2 hours a day and let the solar/wind generator charge the
> battery the rest of the time.
>
> Here is a rough idea based on a few rules of thumb: The pump pressure
> will
> vary greatly as you tune the system so this is the worst case running at a
> full 800PSI.
>
> The maximum recovery rate of one SW30-2540 40" membrane with average
> fouling
> is 13% and the minimum supply rate is 1.3 GPM so you will get a minimum of
> about 10GPH. (That could be a higher in warm water.)
>
> The pump should be Ni/Al Bronze or stainless. Regular brass heads will
> not
> hold up. Small bronze or stainless pumps are hard to find but CAT makes
> the
> bronze 237 that puts out 2.3 GPM @1725RPM.
> http://www.catpumps.com/select/pdfs/231.pdf That will give you a little
> extra to grow into.
>
> The required HP is (GPM*PSI)/1460 so (2.3*800)/1460 = 1.26HP which is hard
> to do on 12VDC. The best you can do in a stock motor is a Leeson 1HP
> (108322) and it eats 80 amps at full load. With 1HP you can get about
> 1.8GPM at 1350RPM so you would need a pulley of say 6" on the motor and 8"
> on the pump. (or 3" & 4")
>
> So the pump will output 108GPH and with a 13% recovery rate you will get
> about 14 GPH of fresh water. The motor will eat about 75 amps at that
> load
> so we are getting about 5.3AH/gallon. It will be closer to 4AH/gal for
> the
> first 1,000 gallons or so but I feel safer using long term numbers. You
> can
> also increase output by adding another SW30-2540 (another $600). That
> will
> give you about 25 GPH for the same AH. My program doesn't cover the 21"
> membranes but at these low flows they will probably be a little more
> efficient than the 40" size. In reality it will probably be considerably
> better than this but, as I said, this is a worst case scenario. As you
> tune
> for the 13% product you will find that the pressure required will be
> considerably less than 800PSI so the HP and therefore the AH will go down.
>
> If you decide to do it I will dig our my sources and get into more detail.
>
> Glenn Ashmore
>
> I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
> there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
> Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
>

and my followup:

Hi, Glenn, and thanks for the detailed response.

Phew! I don't think I can handle 80 amps, for starters. 5-6A/gallon isn't
attractive either.

My KISS makes 15-25A at 15-25k, and higher as the wind goes up (not linear -
better as wind increases), but still would not keep up with that.

Until I get off the grid I don't know what to expect from my 360W of solar.
Every real-life example report I've seen puts typical output at 1/4 minimum
in other than rain to up to 1/2 AH/W replacement, with ~1/3 being typical.
So, I'm hopeful of averaging ~120AH/day there. Given the proclivity of
anchoring in protected areas, I expect non-sailing-day wind power to be more
supplemental than big overage.

As expensive as it is, the commercial guys (spectra, e.g.) are in the
1.5-2A/gallon range, which, if we're making, say, 15-20g/day, is something
we could likely keep up with, making more on windy days and less on not. I
don't know what their secret is, but perhaps they use smaller pumps, or
special gearings, or something else to achieve that.

Obviously, more research is needed - and it's not high on the list,
particularly, as you say, if we're in an area where water is cheap.
However, unless we get a budget hit which we've not yet identified, we don't
expect to hang around STT any more than any other island. Generally
speaking, we were expecting to capture our own water in most cases, whether
just by deck, or by some awning, also not yet designed, drain attachment,
feed to the inlets - but there are the dry periods, and our initial time -
probably more than a year - will be in the Bahamas where I'm told water is a
real challenge; Paradise Island and Nassau, for example, having to barge it
in each day, e.g.

Thanks again...
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Old 11-05-2006, 23:12   #21
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watermaker

From; Biochem/Electrostatics R&D sagemillion@gmail.com
13-3944 Pohoiki RD 808-965-1855
Pahoa,HI 96778 & Salvormaster & CO
Greetings from the Million family,
I build and design multi hulls. I install the 40e in each hull. thats three gph. power survivor is 12vdc and draws four amps. the unit moves 20ghp feed water to get 1.5gph. see (katadyn desalinators-- www.cascademarinenavigation.com--- 360-734-1409 )
My design requires a stainless steel 100 mic screen filter after the seacock. a silt filter, any 30micron paper filter will do. the 40e comes with a hardware kit to install. the out pipe (potable water ) will have a 20mic paper filter or a 5mic carbon block, then on to the 1.5gph ultraviolet unit (30mj/cm2 )---( thats 30 milijoules for every two cubic centimeter) this formula IS IMPORTANT. do not buy a 3mj/cm2 a lot cheaper but doesnt do anything!!! ( see-- ultraviolet.com) look for the bio-logic 1.5 unit. the going price for the 40e is $2.500. I have found the unit for about $1900 to $2100 on ebay in quantities of four or more, feel free to call me or email. Salvor
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Old 12-05-2006, 11:49   #22
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Update on my watermaker

I ran a brief test on my watermaker
cat 2SF15SEEL from EDI Distributors
Leeson DC 3/4HP motor at Electric motor warehouse is $310
pic

I hooked those up with regulator(needle valve) in the basement and I was eating about 50+ amps(the meter was not so accurate beyond 50 amps) at 900PSI but the flow was as advertizsed, 1.5GPH. I hope it stays that way after the membranes are plumbed in. I will add them after I get out of the poluted bay that I am in (Providence, RI). I have 560AH house with two 130W kyoceras and fourwinds II. With two SW30-2540 in serial I figured I will run the watermaker about 2-3 hours every 3rd day. Kyoceras alone should be able to keep up with that. We'll see, live and learn.
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Old 18-05-2006, 11:33   #23
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Hmmmm...

Some interesting numbers on electrical usage! Where to start? Well, I guess I'll start with my configuration.

I currently have installed a Air X marine wind generator and one BP170 watt solar panel with Outback MPPT solar controller. I have installed a water maker system equivalent to the Spectra 380c watermaker.

The last couple of days have been very windy and I got a lot more out of my wind generator than normal. In about 20 knot average wind it generated about 9 amps per hour over a 24 hour period time. This was enough to keep up with my current utilization, WITHOUT running my water maker. My refrigeration, freezer, lights, solenoids, toilets and at anchor instruments consume somewhere between 8.5 and 9.5 amps per hour. It was overcast for the last couple of days, so my estimated production out of my solar panel for the 24 hour period was about 12 amps. The solar output was significantly lower than what I see on average. My average is closer to 40 amps from the solar panel in a 24 hour period. My average output from my windgenator is closer to 25 amps in a 24 hour period. These are my averages over a 3 month period in the Bahams and Turks and Caicos. Typically sunny, typically not as windy as we have had over the last couple of days.

My water maker consumes about 11 amps per hour and generates 14 gallons per hour. The specs say this is not expected, but that is what I have been seing from my instruments. I may have an issue with my flow meter, my amp meter was recently recalibrated so I THINK(?) it is accurate. It may also be a result of the warm water here in the Bahamas. I run the water maker every day for about 1.5 to 2 hours a day. This regime helps maximize the life of the membrane. The water is very clean, so I have only had to change the pre-filter once in the last 3 months.

Since I run my watermaker daily and my computer and stereo, I have found that I have to run my generator for about 2-3 hours a day. I ususally run the generator at the same time as watermaker. The generator is a portable 2kw gas generator. I put it on the bow of the boat and use it to top the batteries and heat water. It is a relatively cheap and simple solution to keeping the batteries close to fully charged.

Some of the lesons learned:

o Solar panels are really nice in the tropics, I will get two more 24 volt 170 watt panels. I use a MPPT controller to reduce the voltage to 12 volt. This appears to be an excellant solution. I get 2 amps even at 08:00 and 18:00. During mid-day it peaks at about 10 amps

o Wind generators are okay, the output for the Air X marine is overstated for most at-anchorage conditions. Still a useful thing to have though. I believe the Kiss may be a better solution and the Four winds is probably better than both of these. I should say, I may be having issues with my blades, other AIR X owners say they get more power out of theirs, but they have been very unclear how they measure the output.

o You will use more water than you think, if you have it available. We take daily showers and do dish washing in fresh water. We consume about 20-30 gallon a day for the two of us. Not exhorbatant, but not frugal either.

o Just because you have a water maker doesn't mean you have unlimited water, unless you are willing to generate the power for it. We have a very efficient water maker, but when we wash down the boat we use a bucket filled from the shower. We typically wash the boat first with salt water, then a fresh water rinse. We take advantage of the infrequent rain and will scrub down the boat during the rain. Great, but it has only rained about 5 times in the last 3 months!

o We have a freind that runs his water maker daily for about 4-5 hours per day, but he runs his diesel generator about 7 hour a day also. He has 300 gallons of diesel tankage. His genset takes about 1/2 gallon per hour. He can afford to run it, because he doesn't mind the cost and has the fuel tanks to support it. But remeber it is about $4 per gallon down here, so for him it is about about $10 per day. (plus maintenace. He just had his generator rebuilt to the tune of $2500)

o Spectra's appear to be excellent systems. I have only heard of one complaint so far. That was related to their automated control system. I have heard numerous complaints about the PUR system. HRO appears to be good. I have only run into one and the owner was happy with it.

o I'd carry a spare membrane. American RO has them for VERY good prices. Spectra list their replacement membrane for $500. You can get the equivalent for $180 from American RO (SW30-2540).

o I'd be concerned with anything that consumes 50 amps per hour. (But, not much choice unless you have a hydraulic intensifier) . Most batteries are rated at a 20 hour discharge rate. So if they are rated at 560 amps, the capacity is rated for 28 amps/hours. When you go above that, the capacity signifcantly decreases. It would help signicantly to run this type of system during peak solar panel output. That will help with the discharge rate. I'd expect about 7 amps out of each 130 watt panel, with an MPPT, somewhat less without. Four winds has some of the best output I've seen. GOOD CHOICE!

o I'd expect the pressure to drop accross the membrane and filters, but 900 input PSI should give you optimal output from the SW30-2540. Two should be quite good if you can maintain the 1.5gph output or more. I'd be as concerned about the voltage drop from the batteries. That may cause the PSI to drop. I'd be concerned about the cable runs from the batteries and switches. I know you are probably aware of this, but you're probably looking at 4 or 5 AWG cable to connect the curcuit. You'd probably need to put a relay in the curcuit to minimize the cable runs.

There are some do it yourself examples out there, one of these days I'll even get around to posting what I did to build mine.l If you take a do-it-youself approach, you can save SIGNIFCANT $$$$.

Keith



o Most membrane suppliers recommend running the water maker every other day. Bacterial growth becomes an issue with less frequent use.
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Old 18-05-2006, 12:51   #24
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Keith, the run is about 12 feet or so and I am using 4 AWG and put a solenoid as well. In the electrical usage I haven't figured in the jabsco water puppy to feed the pump. This will add another 5 or so amps. I found a shunt and an old ammeter at the consignment shop very cheap, so i will make this a dedicated ammeter for Watermaker consumption.

One thing I am still trying to decide is how to plumb the fresh water line. The TDS meter I got has dual sensors(not a big deal) but a very small diameter fittings for the hose. My fresh water hose would have to be 3/16"or 1/8" ID. The pressure vessels/membranes are fitted with a 1/4" fitting. Does anyone have any experience with backpressure in such case and weather it will be a problem.
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Old 18-05-2006, 13:48   #25
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Keith --

Don't mean to pressure you, but I, for one, would be very interested in your DIY "Spectra"! So, if this bit of encouragement helps, I'd very much like to learn from your experience.

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Old 18-05-2006, 23:51   #26
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I wouldn't call it spectra. Spectra got that Clark pump. Contraversial thing. Some like it some don't. Some had no problems, some had the pump replaced 3-4 times before tossing everything to trash. From what i understand it had to do with air bubbles traped in the feedback loop. At 900psi the pump(especially clark pump doesn't like any air in the waterline). My design is based on Glens(Rutu) watermaker accept that I didn't want to go with engine driven pump. So I opted for electric motor driven pump with needle valve regulator. I don't want to say anything about the design until I get some production out of it. As long you get the flow, dont try to save money on membranes, line them up in serial, the larger the better. But like I said earlier, i am in dirty providence river, and it will be July before I get out of the bay and try to actually make some water. Then I'll know if it was all worth it.
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Old 19-05-2006, 06:33   #27
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Another who is very interested in your final system when you have tested , and problems experienced afterward.
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Old 28-06-2006, 21:27   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phorvati
Keith,
Why risk getting a clark pump which you have to treat as a black box. I.e cannot open and replace parts as necessary. They are very efficient but as wtih any new technolgy, the energy recovery system is not robust yet.

Petar
The first time I say the Clark pump was in 1998. From all I have heard, it is proven technology. IF they do break, Spectra fixes them. If you want to, they have complete documenation for rebuilding it yourself. Most of the problems I have heard of were related to high silt content in the source water. Put lots of Pre-filters in. Don't be affraid to change them!

Keith
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Old 28-06-2006, 21:34   #29
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Okay, okay....

I'll get it up on my website in the next week or so....



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Old 29-06-2006, 01:32   #30
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