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Old 14-06-2015, 03:12   #91
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

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Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
There are a couple of devices available which hold and treat sewage but as they appear to sanitize it by adding chlorine I wonder if we are doing more harm by putting this into the environment (I am careful with my use of bleach for this reason)

I have noticed that when I anchor for a few days in spots where other boats anchor that catfish appear to take up residence under my boat and presume they are there to exploit my discharges (one creatures **** in this case is another's living)

Ethically I am now torn between the harm I do in discharging versus depriving another creature of their living.

Advice please?
Hi Raymond, the chlorine sewage treatments which use natural seawater in the equation: NaCl + H2O ---------> Na+ (ion ) + Cl'(ion) + H+ ( ion) + OH' created by passing an electric current through the salt water (which is water with sodium chloride) are not adding chlorine at all they are simply using the naturally occurring chlorine in saltwater to produce some naturally sanitising products a little bit faster then occurs without the electrical help. Not long after the mix hits the water it reverts to saltwater and sanitised crap with all the good nutrients still there. That's why I like Lectrasan and other similar systems.
Other posters have claimed that human crap is worse than fish crap; they are only right if they mean it's worse for humans, it doesn't bother fish even mammals like dolphins. I do need to worry about catching your bugs but I don't need to worry about catching Tuna bugs and vice versa.
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Old 16-06-2015, 14:51   #92
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

No, human sewage is bad for the ocean. eutrophication-natural occurrence is a good thing, like a whale pooping. Eutrophication by human influence is a bad thing. Dumping sewage in the water is not doing any marine life any favors. It is stated that it harms humans but not fish. Why? It's because we eat a fish contaminated with human sewage we may get sick. But this is also proof that the fish are picking up the bad microbes. They also pick up the medications we excrete, antibiotics we take.

Nutrients are essential chemical elements that organisms need to survive and reproduce (Smith & Smith 1998). Macronutrients, needed in large quantities, include carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, sulphur, magnesium, and calcium, while micronutrients like iron, copper and zinc are needed in lesser quantities (Smith & Smith 1998).Excess nutrients are discharged to the marine environment through sewage, fertilizers from agriculture and by nitrogen oxides from burning fossil fuels. According to GESAMP (2001) sewage tends to be the main source of nutrients near cities, while agriculture predominates in rural areas. Increased nutrients may lead to eutrophication which is an excessive growth of marine plant life and decay (Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/eutrophication). Plants such as algae often experience a population increase (called an algal bloom) which limit the sunlight available and cause lack of oxygen in water. When oxygen levels decline, marine animals, coral reefs, seagrass beds and other vital habitats in the Wider Caribbean Region suffer and may die. Some algal blooms are toxic and may harm or even kill whales, dolphins and other marine mammals - and cause hundreds of millions of dollars worth of damage to commercial fisheries. Read more under the issue Nutrients.

Wastewater, Sewage and Sanitation — Caribbean Environment Programme

If it was one flush, okay, the sea can take it. But cruising is popular now, not like 20-30 years ago. Cruisers congregate. We have the means to dispose of our poo in a way, to try to at least, to keep our human influences at a minimum.
Cheers
Erika
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Old 16-06-2015, 15:22   #93
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

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Originally Posted by Ocean Girl View Post
No, human sewage is bad for the ocean. eutrophication-natural occurrence is a good thing, like a whale pooping. Eutrophication by human influence is a bad thing. Dumping sewage in the water is not doing any marine life any favors. It is stated that it harms humans but not fish. Why? It's because we eat a fish contaminated with human sewage we may get sick. But this is also proof that the fish are picking up the bad microbes. They also pick up the medications we excrete, antibiotics we take.

Nutrients are essential chemical elements that organisms need to survive and reproduce (Smith & Smith 1998). Macronutrients, needed in large quantities, include carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, sulphur, magnesium, and calcium, while micronutrients like iron, copper and zinc are needed in lesser quantities (Smith & Smith 1998).Excess nutrients are discharged to the marine environment through sewage, fertilizers from agriculture and by nitrogen oxides from burning fossil fuels. According to GESAMP (2001) sewage tends to be the main source of nutrients near cities, while agriculture predominates in rural areas. Increased nutrients may lead to eutrophication which is an excessive growth of marine plant life and decay (Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/eutrophication). Plants such as algae often experience a population increase (called an algal bloom) which limit the sunlight available and cause lack of oxygen in water. When oxygen levels decline, marine animals, coral reefs, seagrass beds and other vital habitats in the Wider Caribbean Region suffer and may die. Some algal blooms are toxic and may harm or even kill whales, dolphins and other marine mammals - and cause hundreds of millions of dollars worth of damage to commercial fisheries. Read more under the issue Nutrients.

Wastewater, Sewage and Sanitation €” Caribbean Environment Programme

If it was one flush, okay, the sea can take it. But cruising is popular now, not like 20-30 years ago. Cruisers congregate. We have the means to dispose of our poo in a way, to try to at least, to keep our human influences at a minimum.
Cheers
Erika
If you're going to attempt to quote science, at least try to get it correct instead of bass-ackwards. The algae bloom causes a lack of oxygen ONLY when the bloom dies due to a lack of available nutrients in the water. The resulting decaying plant material renders the surface water hypoxic to animals due to the chemicals being released during the decomposition process. In other words, if there was more poo in the water, the conditions would remain hyper oxygenated and conducive and beneficial to life. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Algal_bloom
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Old 16-06-2015, 15:42   #94
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

Arguing that the presence or absence of sewage, organic nutrients, algae, fish or humans has either a positive or negative effect on our environment has little value. It's not the presence of these naturally occuring chemicals or species that is the problem, but it's the over abundance or total removal that disrupts the balance in an ecosystem. Sewage can be of little consequence or devastating depending on the concentration!
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Old 16-06-2015, 15:54   #95
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

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Arguing that the presence or absence of sewage, organic nutrients, algae, fish or humans has either a positive or negative effect on our environment has little value. It's not the presence of these naturally occuring chemicals or species that is the problem, but it's the over abundance or total removal that disrupts the balance in an ecosystem. Sewage can be of little consequence or devastating depending on the concentration!
The man's got it right! Thanks HF. See my post that puts it at a grade 3 level ... which is about where this discussion is at.
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Old 17-06-2015, 09:05   #96
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

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If you're going to attempt to quote science, at least try to get it correct instead of bass-ackwards. The algae bloom causes a lack of oxygen ONLY when the bloom dies due to a lack of available nutrients in the water. The resulting decaying plant material renders the surface water hypoxic to animals due to the chemicals being released during the decomposition process. In other words, if there was more poo in the water, the conditions would remain hyper oxygenated and conducive and beneficial to life. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Algal_bloom
Sorry if I wasn't clear. Maybe I worded something incorrect, I re read it and it sounds right to me, shrug. I think it is more complex, and more mechanisms in place, so maybe I was oversimplifying.. Eutrophication leads to algae blooms, the algae blooms can be man made or natural. Anyways, good points being made here.

So your point here is the more poo, the merry? We are doing the ocean a favor by pouring our sewage into it? Circle of like and all that jazz?

Not trying pick a fight, just trying to see your logic as it is the main excuse folks use to pump overboard.
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Old 17-06-2015, 10:17   #97
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

Not to muddy the water over the grand Ka Ka debate. Be assured that all most every coastal and river side city dumps their sewage in the water, treated or untreated, the amount of effluent issuing from the small boats in the bay is a "drop in the bucket" by comparison. I don't endorse the dumping of sewage into the ocean, but where do you think the pumping stations discharge?
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Old 17-06-2015, 10:24   #98
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

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Not to muddy the water over the grand Ka Ka debate. Be assured that all most every coastal and river side city dumps their sewage in the water, treated or untreated, the amount of effluent issuing from the small boats in the bay is a "drop in the bucket" by comparison. I don't endorse the dumping of sewage into the ocean, but where do you think the pumping stations discharge?
That is so true!! In fact there is new research out that suggests these waste plants could be producing or at least helping along the antibiotic resistant strains . There is one, waste treatment plant in California's that is RO, but so expensive no one wants to pay for it.
Most plant have dessiccating stage, then off to the dump/landfill. But near as I can tell, ALL waste treatment plants dump raw sewage when in a flood/overfill situation. :-( I'll dig up the research article.....
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Old 17-06-2015, 10:31   #99
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

I know that in the grand town of Homer, AK we have ponds that are aerated to treat the sewage and other forms of good bacteria are introduced to accelerate bio-digestion before discharge into the ocean, which is a good thing, however our population is growing so fast I fear that it will soon be too small to accommodate the volume. I stand by my former premise, humans should not be allowed to congregate in groups of greater than 300 for more than 30 days at a time, and the 30 day congregates will coincide with the spring and fall equinox, once the planting and harvesting has been performed including the celebration of said planting and harvestings they should have to disperse.
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Old 17-06-2015, 10:40   #100
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

Sewage Plants May Be Creating "Super" Bacteria - Scientific American

There are more, this is from 09.
Many head systems can mitigate the impact on the sea. The lectrasan( my favorite!), the dry head( what we have), or if you have a wet head, just research your pump out location, see who they are sending your sewage to. Asking questing, being involved in your uh er disposal of sewage. Could being about change, give a little boost to an already loaded down ecosystem.
Sorry for my ramblings. I've been researching recently about this subject due to our dry head (UDDT). looking at the problem at first blush it is very understandable why folks throw up their arms and just pump overboard, but dig deeper, we of all people should be the loudest voice we live and work on the water, this is our life!
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Old 17-06-2015, 10:41   #101
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

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Not to muddy the water over the grand Ka Ka debate. Be assured that all most every coastal and river side city dumps their sewage in the water, treated or untreated, the amount of effluent issuing from the small boats in the bay is a "drop in the bucket" by comparison. I don't endorse the dumping of sewage into the ocean, but where do you think the pumping stations discharge?
Years ago when I lived in SE FLA, the environmentalists stopped the dumping of treated waste water into the ocean. Sounds good right?

So where does the water go?

The county drilled a deep well and they pump the treated waste water into the aquifer. This is not an aquifer that wells pull water from but it is still an aquifer. I can't believe there is not some mixing of those aquifers over time. Surely it would be better to pump the treated waste water into the Gulf Stream...

Later,
Dan
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Old 17-06-2015, 13:51   #102
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

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....or if you have a wet head, just research your pump out location, see who they are sending your sewage to. Asking questing, being involved in your uh er disposal of sewage.!
Seriously.... You must have too much time on your hands. I really couldn't care less what the local pump out station or sewage treatment plant does with the poop.
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Old 17-06-2015, 19:45   #103
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

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looking at the problem at first blush it is very understandable why folks throw up their arms and just pump overboard, but dig deeper, we of all people should be the loudest voice we live and work on the water, this is our life!
I 100% agree. As a young generation "x" "y'er" or whatever, the attitude of not giving a **** doesn't cut it. it's not environmental wackoism and it's not drivel about the future a million years from now, it's giving a damn about the immediate future.

The argument that we're only a drop in the bucket is bs. There are billions of people in the world right now that want to emulate our lifestyle. If I can make some miniscule difference in trying to shape what a "successful and happy 1st world lifestyle" means, bam.
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Old 18-06-2015, 06:25   #104
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

I have a gen "x" er "y'er" daughter. I am happy that her generation gives a darn about the world. But I am equally disappointed in the poor quality education she received and thus the inability to understand the relative magnitude of things. The scale of the ocean is lost on many today. This affliction exists in both the older and new generations. It's just that the older generation thinks they have no impact on anything which isn't right. But younger people seem to think they are much more significant than the reality.

There is no possibility that cruisers' poo can cause an algae bloom sufficient to kill anything. Likewise, most cruisers are not guzzling hormones and antibiotics daily thus their waste is not "evil". The ocean is teeming with bacteria with or without our contribution. Cruiser's waste is much less than even a drop in a bucket. It's more akin to a drop in a chlorinated swimming pool. There are places with poor tidal flow that should never be sullied but these are rare and usually obvious to cruisers.
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Old 18-06-2015, 08:13   #105
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Re: Do I need a holding tank? (legally speaking)

Transmitterdan,
I agree, most seem unable to process the fact that their contribution, whether it be to societal concerns or organic waste going into the sea.... only lasts an instant in the scheme of things. When waste goes into the ocean, it's basically rendered and broken down by the salt water in seconds and 100% consumed in minutes.... it doesn't go on forever. The composting heads take months to break down waste, the ocean takes minutes to do the same.

We just arrived minutes ago at this beautiful Sardinian anchorage, and I have no concerns about the water quality, knowing full well that most likely none of the boats here have holding tanks,
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