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Old 26-09-2013, 09:51   #16
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Re: Diesel heater questions

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thats good to know. i have Russia on my short list of countries i want to permanently move to. its hard to think that Russians are more free today then Americans.
i would like to visit first. maybe in 2016 i will consider trying the bureaucracy first hand.
Simpler, cheaper, and faster to visit first by air. There are something like 6 nonstop flights a day to Moscow from New York. No bureaucracy, no hassle, but beware that Moscow hotels are the most expensive in the world.
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Old 26-09-2013, 10:18   #17
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Re: Diesel heater questions

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
I have an older fab-all heater (1970's), that was on a low pressure pump but I have since converted it to a gravity tank. It does a great job. Some thoughts on mine:

- You can really increase the heat range if you have a cabin fan aimed at the heat shrouds.
- Smothering the flame with exhaust gas, causing it to go out and smoke like a fiend, happens on certain points of sail or when tacking.
- The problems with the flue vary boat to boat as it's almost entirely about the airflow around the exhaust and inlet.
- My friend told me the pressure dampener thing makes a huge difference, someone else told me they didn't work.

All things considered, it's fine.
Yeah the varying form boat to boat thing seems to be the order of the day. I hear so many conflicting opinions on these . I wish there was some way to determine the best place for the flue. Right now the preliminary drawings has it just about halfway between the mast and the front of the cockpit on the starboard side of the cabin roof. I'm not sure if that's good or bad. Just about anywhere you put it there's going to be a sail near at some point and I hate to design the layout of the boat around the heater location.

I thought of having an input stack nearby the exhaust but that takes even more space and then you might have the exhaust blow back into the input. On the other hand if you put it farther away you have more chance of pressure differential . I guess I should just forget the input stack, add a couple of dorade boxes, install the electric motor and hope for the best.
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Old 26-09-2013, 10:40   #18
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Re: Diesel heater questions

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How cold does it get there in winter? Or how cold are the water temps? Too cold for (relatively) simple reverse cycle AC/heat?

-Chris
Where I am it snows a couple inches maybe 3 or four times a year. It doesn't tend to stay on the ground long though. Farther north....well you know the story...... burning German tanks in the snow... frozen dead soldiers... watch the military channel The water temp can get cold in the winter, like almost freezing but a apparently it doesn't freeze over at least in the black sea. The Azov sea used to freeze some, but I guess it hasn't in a few years from what I've been told.
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Old 26-09-2013, 10:50   #19
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The main thing I was wondering is how much can the boat heel before the heater has problems, however I would also be interested in any comments comparing the different models or comments on general usage.
.
We have used a reflek for 15 years.

The manual says up to 15 degrees of heel is acceptable.

There are some tricks to lighting drip diesel heaters. Take a look at FAQ 87
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Old 26-09-2013, 10:51   #20
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Re: Diesel heater questions

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Where I am it snows a couple inches maybe 3 or four times a year. It doesn't tend to stay on the ground long though. Farther north....well you know the story...... burning German tanks in the snow... frozen dead soldiers... watch the military channel The water temp can get cold in the winter, like almost freezing but a apparently it doesn't freeze over at least in the black sea. The Azov sea used to freeze some, but I guess it hasn't in a few years from what I've been told.

Perhaps then worth a check to see whether a reverse-cycle AC/heat system might be up to the task? I think Dometic etc. probably describe heating viability down to various water temps (mid-40's maybe?), see Vector Turbo et al.

Perhaps with occasional winter augmentation, electric oil or space heaters?

Also might be worth reviewing Mitsubishi's new-ish household electric heat pump system, which does not use water and is apparently effective down to 0°F. Maybe could share duscting with AC system?

I suppose lots of that also depends on rates for electricity -- and/or availability while underway.

-Chris
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Old 26-09-2013, 11:05   #21
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Re: Diesel heater questions

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Novorossiysk is in a deep bay surrounded by quite high mountains and is subject to katabatic storms which can be very severe. Also has an amazing number of waterspouts -- I have seen dozens there myself. Are you planning to keep your boat there? I understand it's really hard to find berthing for yachts there.
Yeah there isn't much berthing space available in Russia for sure and what there is can be very expensive however everyone I talked to said they could berth my boat and at that time I was considering a 37' boat (which is large for this area). They typically charge by LOA X beam. During the stormy season most everyone has their boat on the dry in Novorossiysk. However in Anapa not that far away I saw boats in the water. There are some other marinas that are open year around but some I would hardly call marinas. This is the main reason I want a small boat that I can trailer with a shallow draft I can take up rivers. It will also have a tabernacle mast. It just gives me far more options. I would not exactly say there is a cruising "community" in Russia. This is kind of an experiment for me. I moved here from the San Francisco bay area a few moths ago.
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Old 26-09-2013, 12:47   #22
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Re: Diesel heater questions

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the Wallas Stove, they are perfect for small boat all the way up to large boats. http://www.scanmarineusa.com/docs/pd...July-2011s.pdf

Now onto Dickerson and other drip pot stoves. Proper install is key, as well as proper sizing, to big and it has to run on low fire, which increases the chance of backdraft. Never install more then a total of 45 degrees angle in the smoke stack, also better to use 2, 22.5 degrees instead of 1, 45, better yet use a straight smoke stack.

Gravity feed fuel is the best but will work on a pump if done right. Also use Kerosene if possible much cleaner burning.

Next you must have some form of outside intake air to match the stove output, it should come in as low as possible. Negative cabin pressure is the main reason of backdraft. It only takes a few seconds negative, for a back draft. Also using longer/higher smoke stack creates a better drought, must must use a barometric dampener. This is the preferred way, it creates a balance drought.

Now for the trick of the century in lighting off a drip pot. Use about 1-2 ounce of Stove Alcohol. After it's burning 1 minute turn the diesel on by the time the diesel reach it's burning level the alcohol will have generated enough heat in the pot and the stack to start an immediate clean burn on the diesel...no smoke no soot.

I run my Dickerson Atlantic for months on end, I have friends whom start their stove in September, and don't shut it down until April/May.

My friend that owns operates the Steveston Lifeboat out of Vancouver BC runs his Atlantic 24/7/365.

Lloyd

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Old 26-09-2013, 14:19   #23
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Re: Diesel heater questions

I have a Fab-All, which I believe is an older company related to Sig-Mar. I installed with a gravity tank and an air intake tube of the same type (SS 3") as the exhaust tube. With the balanced air system, I have not had problems in high winds. You can hear the wind but the flame does not go out. I have never seen soot on board. At 40F external temps and wind I could easily keep the cabin warm in my 28 foot sailboat, but I did close the door to the head and v-berth to concentrate heat in the cabin. I did not have a lot of insulation. It is very comfortable but have warm slippers and a place to put your feet off the floor because any cold air that enters will pool on the floor. Running it all night is not a concern, at least I was comfortable running it while I slept.

If you are looking for a reliable heater to run for long periods of time, I would recommend a pot burner. The best are probably Refleks. I recommend to install the heater as low in the boat as possible to reduce cold air stratification and get the type with a cooktop to heat water for tea or washing up.
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Old 26-09-2013, 15:30   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnollrunner

Yeah there isn't much berthing space available in Russia for sure and what there is can be very expensive however everyone I talked to said they could berth my boat and at that time I was considering a 37' boat (which is large for this area). They typically charge by LOA X beam. During the stormy season most everyone has their boat on the dry in Novorossiysk. However in Anapa not that far away I saw boats in the water. There are some other marinas that are open year around but some I would hardly call marinas. This is the main reason I want a small boat that I can trailer with a shallow draft I can take up rivers. It will also have a tabernacle mast. It just gives me far more options. I would not exactly say there is a cruising "community" in Russia. This is kind of an experiment for me. I moved here from the San Francisco bay area a few moths ago.
You moved from the Bay Area to Krasnodarsky Krai? Wow, there must be a story there. Wow.
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Old 26-09-2013, 15:44   #25
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Re: Diesel heater questions

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Привет! Thanks for the reply. I did think of that actually and normally it would be a great idea, however the problem is my boat will be SMALL. Only 7.5' beam! It has to be somewhat trailerable, go up rivers, duck under bridges and fit though my gate. In combination with that I also wanted it to have a bit more classic looking styling hence the custom design. (I can post a preliminary drawings if anyone is interested)

It would be hard for me to fit even the Dickerson Bristol model in. The Taylors 30 has only 11" of depth and gimbals to boot. I kind of have a separate spot reserved for the heater and the Dickerson Alaska is on my list. There is also the Newport but I figure if I mount it down low I'll be able to have a longer flue so the floor heater might work better.

One other problem is (from what I read) the Dickerson stoves put out a lot of heat when cooking (hence you can use them for a heater too) but surprisingly here in Southern Russia it gets quite hot during the summer. In fact it almost feels like the topics at times because it can rain heavily and then the sun will come out. You can even swim in the black sea as it can get up to 80 deg. In any case if I want to cook during he summer I'm thinking that might be another issue with having a combined heater/cooker. Admittedly I don't actually know how much the Taylors will heat up the boat however.
They are not the cheapest solution, but it sounds like you are an ideal candidate for a Wallas stove with the optional heat hood. I had one for a couple of years on another boat before I sold it - a 28' - and it worked great. Clean, no odor, heated the cabin just fine as well as provided an easy to clean cooktop. It functions as a heater only if you close the lid with the blower on. Otherwise, it is just a fine cooktop.

Wallas | Wallas 85 DP boat stove | 85 DP Ceramic diesel stove| Designed for boats
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Old 26-09-2013, 21:21   #26
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We have used a reflek for 15 years.

The manual says up to 15 degrees of heel is acceptable.

There are some tricks to lighting drip diesel heaters. Take a look at FAQ 87
I have a refkeks as well, nice dry heat plus a hot plate to have a pot of soup bubbling away.

I still have a badly designed flue so fitted a computer fan to push the air in, works well with close to zero power draw.
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Old 26-09-2013, 23:27   #27
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Re: Diesel heater questions

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They are not the cheapest solution, but it sounds like you are an ideal candidate for a Wallas stove with the optional heat hood. I had one for a couple of years on another boat before I sold it - a 28' - and it worked great. Clean, no odor, heated the cabin just fine as well as provided an easy to clean cooktop. It functions as a heater only if you close the lid with the blower on. Otherwise, it is just a fine cooktop.

Wallas | Wallas 85 DP boat stove | 85 DP Ceramic diesel stove| Designed for boats
I actually looked at those and people say they work great when they work. What scares me is the couple of horror stories I saw when they failed. I won't be able to take the unit down to get it repaired so easily and if it ends up being a semi-chronic problem I might as well just drop the thing in the trash on the corner. I really want to focus on low tech as much as possible even if there is some overhead in ease of use. If I was living in the bay area still it would be a different story.

The main thing I don't like about the Taylors cooker is there is no flue (I assume since it gimbals) however for cooking I think I can deal with that because it's not something I would just leave on while sleeping assuming I have a separate heater with a flue. It also has an oven and a griller which is kind of cool.

Right now I'm torn between the Dickerson and the Refleks heaters though. I managed to find the manual for the Refleks yesterday and it says it runs with a 10 deg heel (possibly older manuals say 15). I think The Dickerson manuals say 15 deg. However a lot of folks seem to think the Refleks works better although I seemed to find more minor complaints about the Refleks while heeling so maybe that jives with the manual. The kicker for me might be the little cozy little window on the Dickerson.
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Old 27-09-2013, 00:06   #28
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Re: Diesel heater questions

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You moved from the Bay Area to Krasnodarsky Krai? Wow, there must be a story there. Wow.
Strangely enough not, other than my wife being Russian. Also my 6 year old son already spoke Russian because he went to a Russian pre-school in the US and of course my wife spoke to him in Russian. In any case we just wanted to try something different and Russia made sense. Also despite the famed bureaucracy you can actually move to Russia without an outstanding job offer and such. When I researched other countries I was surprised to find out there are a lot more restrictions. I would have had a hard time just getting up and moving to the UK or France for instance. Finally Krasnodar has better weather than most of the rest of Russia and my wife had a couple of friends here so there you have it.
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Old 27-09-2013, 03:19   #29
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Re: Diesel heater questions

I just fired off my Dickinson Bering stove for the first time. I also like the little window.
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Old 27-09-2013, 08:17   #30
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Re: Diesel heater questions

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I actually looked at those and people say they work great when they work. What scares me is the couple of horror stories I saw when they failed. I won't be able to take the unit down to get it repaired so easily and if it ends up being a semi-chronic problem I might as well just drop the thing in the trash on the corner. I really want to focus on low tech as much as possible even if there is some overhead in ease of use. If I was living in the bay area still it would be a different story.
I don't know this for sure, but the problems some may have reported I suspect are due to installation. The unit has an exhaust fan to discharges gase outside the vessel. As I recall, they were very specific about how long that exhaust could be, how many bends, etc. Ignition is controlled by electronics, as is the small pump, so any sea water intrusion or spray through the exhaust port would raise hell, for sure. Also, I remember the diesel pick up had to be exactly the right size, length, etc. Mine worked flawlessly, as others seem to, but they do require care in installation or so I presume.
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