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Old 03-06-2018, 10:05   #31
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Re: Danfoss AEO controller

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
.I think now I have one of two choices.
1. Leave the fridge alone, run it as it was designed, it is actually a Marvel in efficiency and seems to be simple and rock solid. Itís KISS.
2. Put it on a simple timer and have it automatically turn off during the night and back on during the day, thats cheap and pretty KISS.
I canít be trusted to do it myself, I will forget.
Just spitballin' here.

2 systems into one box, one thin plate the other eutectic, each sized to get to basic temp need independently if necessary.

Thin plate evaporator system set to run 24x7 as usual based on temp in a water-filled container.

Eutectic holding plate tied to a simple adjustable LVD combined with a timer.

X minutes/hours after when Y voltage is reached, turn on eutectic compressor. This is for renewable sources, also have a manual On to bypass, and an ignition relay for when dino juice is burning.

Maybe tune temp setpoints so the 24*7 evaporator system only kicks in after eutectic heat absorption begins to flag?

Obviously expensive, likely suitable for larger system only, but optimizing for energy efficiency.

Idea is to maximize eutectic capture of excess power, but in situations where that isn't available, take advantage of shorter evaporator cycling.

Assumes the excess power production can resume anytime, stops wasteful rundown of batteries on long eutectic runtimes.
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Old 03-06-2018, 10:58   #32
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Danfoss AEO controller

I may one day separate the box entirely and buy another system, but bet money my AH usage wonít be less, cause Iím running two systems never mind the $$. I do understand how a Eutectic system is supposed to work, that is phase change at each compressor cycle, I also donít believe many in actual use operate in that manner, even though it is the ideal situation.

If so just by a seat of the pants belief my off times ought to be likely 12 hours or more, cause I think I have almost 5 gl or so of Eutectic solution, and if I do, that isnít phase changing in a couple of hours. I had it off for eight hours and just removing the plug and using a pencil to test, they were both still frozen solid, or at least the top was anyway. Think how long it would take to melt 5 gls of ďblue iceĒ in a large cooler kept out of the sun?

Another option that I may go to is to change the Eutectic solution and remove the separator and run the thing as a huge refrigerator, and use an Engel as the freezer.
Another option and what I had intended is to increase the insulation, thereby also decreasing cabinet size, between doing both it ought to get me to a size /R value that my system is not undersized. By the way, the 80% was just a SWAG, it was not measured.

Many ways to skin a cat.

Likely I will just leave it alone, it was working just fine, it held both temps rather well actually without all the problems I thought I would have holding a good fridge temp with a spill over.

Remember it wasnít ďbrokenĒ this was just an experiment, a failed experiment, but failed due to my not understanding the operating principle of the ďgadgetĒ I installed.
However other than the money I wasted itís simply unplugging a couple of wires and plugging in the original to return it to its original configuration.

I may sell the ďgadgetĒ cause I think it is the perfect ticket for thin plate system, something like an AB Super Cold machine or any other fridge that has a box type of evaporator that the freezer is the inside of the evaporator or maybe just s thin plate fridge.
Itís just not the thing for a TXV Cold Plate system is all.
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:17   #33
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Danfoss AEO controller

Pete, just at a quick glance, your numbers seem to be run a 2500 RPM, which is of course the lowest speed.
My compressor is running at 4400 RPM, can you calculate for the higher RPM?
Do you run your systems at 2500 RPM?
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:42   #34
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Danfoss AEO controller

OK let me explain why I donít think most Cold Plate systems actually phase change each compressor cycle.
The phase change occurs at one set temp, you can of course vary this temp by the mix ratio of the fluid. So there ought be only one set temp that a system would run properly at, there is no adjusting a thermostat without changing the freeze point of the solution, if you need colder temps, if you set it colder than the solutions melting point, it doesnít melt.
The proper phase temp needs to shift with thermostat settings, and I doubt many do that.
Iíd suspect many if not most of us only achieve a partial phase change at best, but that is just my theory.
If Iím right, then a proper Eutectic system isnít easy to achieve, takes some tuning.
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:54   #35
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Re: Danfoss AEO controller

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post

I think now I have one of two choices.
1. Leave the fridge alone, run it as it was designed, it is actually a Marvel in efficiency and seems to be simple and rock solid. It’s KISS.
2. Put it on a simple timer and have it automatically turn off during the night and back on during the day, thats cheap and pretty KISS.
I can’t be trusted to do it myself, I will forget.
How about a photocell and a small 12 volt relay with the contacts hooked in series with the thermostat?
Daytime, it runs. Night? Off. No need for a timer.

Edit:
Post #30 Oze Pete has a very valid point.
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:05   #36
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Re: Danfoss AEO controller

If you are still using the original door and top insulation there is one place to get a lot of bang for the buck. I added 3" under the top and replaced those twin doors with a single, insulated door and gasket. Put an insulated partition near the evaporator end with a small fan that operates when the compressor is on. 15 degrees inside the evap, 20 or so on the space outside, and 38 around the remainder of the box. BD50 operating on lowest speed with the option of switching in a resistor if we dump a lot of load on the system. Typical cruising in the Summer uses about 60 AH a day. If we have motored hard that number might go up 5 or 10 AH because the freezer end is next to engine, but if we have been motoring hard the batteries are well charged.
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:09   #37
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Re: Danfoss AEO controller

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I may one day separate the box entirely and buy another system, but bet money my AH usage wonít be less, cause Iím running two systems never mind the $$. I do understand how a Eutectic system is supposed to work, that is phase change at each compressor cycle, I also donít believe many in actual use operate in that manner, even though it is the ideal situation.

If so just by a seat of the pants belief my off times ought to be likely 12 hours or more, cause I think I have almost 5 gl or so of Eutectic solution, and if I do, that isnít phase changing in a couple of hours. I had it off for eight hours and just removing the plug and using a pencil to test, they were both still frozen solid, or at least the top was anyway. Think how long it would take to melt 5 gls of ďblue iceĒ in a large cooler kept out of the sun?

Another option that I may go to is to change the Eutectic solution and remove the separator and run the thing as a huge refrigerator, and use an Engel as the freezer.
Another option and what I had intended is to increase the insulation, thereby also decreasing cabinet size, between doing both it ought to get me to a size /R value that my system is not undersized. By the way, the 80% was just a SWAG, it was not measured.

Many ways to skin a cat.

Likely I will just leave it alone, it was working just fine, it held both temps rather well actually without all the problems I thought I would have holding a good fridge temp with a spill over.

Remember it wasnít ďbrokenĒ this was just an experiment, a failed experiment, but failed due to my not understanding the operating principle of the ďgadgetĒ I installed.
However other than the money I wasted itís simply unplugging a couple of wires and plugging in the original to return it to its original configuration.

I may sell the ďgadgetĒ cause I think it is the perfect ticket for thin plate system, something like an AB Super Cold machine or any other fridge that has a box type of evaporator that the freezer is the inside of the evaporator or maybe just s thin plate fridge.
Itís just not the thing for a TXV Cold Plate system is all.
It Pete wants to prove you wrong on this one he will need to through in the Bay Bridge.
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Old 03-06-2018, 13:20   #38
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Danfoss AEO controller

Yes, original top, all original insulation.
I had planned on increasing the insulation and decreasing box size, as it is the Wife has to stand on a foot stool to reach the bottom, a few inches there would mean no stool required.
Simplest, cheapest and most logical way to decrease consumption is to increase insulation. I know that, knew that, just the possibility of kicking a compressor into high gear and storing excess energy that is going to waste was intriguing, it was an experiment, a failed experiment, but I understand why now.
Learn from me, donít make my mistake, that is the only reason I posted all this.
I still think it has possibilities for any system that runs on low speed and or a thin plate fridge though.

Iíll get around to increasing the insulation one day, havenít yet though because the system in fact does keep up as it is, working itís butt off, but that is actually more efficient I believe or I was taught so anyway.

I donít think itís about proving anyone wrong, Pete is helping. I just asked if he could run the numbers at the speed my compressor is running at is all.
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Old 03-06-2018, 14:13   #39
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Re: Danfoss AEO controller

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So after having a good look at this “system” I have purchased, it’s essentially useless from what I can tell on likely any hold over system.
Correct....I could have told you that and saved you the money if you would have asked me ahead of time....

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
TXV must be how, if the controller is not dialing down the compressor RPM.
Correct, and the next time someone tries to tell you a Critical Orifice system is as efficient as a TXV System you will know to ignore them....

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
However I was trying to find out the theory of operation of an AEO, since I couldn’t find out squat on the Internet.
It's all about the Requirement to match the BTU Removal of the Evaporator with the Compressor Speed for efficiency on a Cycling Non-Hold-Over Capacity unit. It doesn't apply to holding plate systems where the intent is to remove more heat from the evaporator (holding plate) than can be removed from the Box as a means to "store cold".

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It seems to automatically use more power when it was needed, but less when it wasn’t. Secop data seems to indicate that power consumption is flat based on evaporator temp and compressor RPM...
Bingo....
You are discovering for yourself the advantage of a TXV...the compressor nor the controller has nothing to do it it...it's just responding to what the TXV is doing.
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Old 03-06-2018, 15:34   #40
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Danfoss AEO controller

Rich, all I can say in my defense is it was interesting, I learned something, and sometimes lessons learned the hard way, stick.
However itís my nature to tinker, sometimes it works, most of the time I waste my time, but learn something.
It wasnít all the much money really, and if I sell it, Iíll recoup some of it.
I still think for a thin plate evaporator, especially if there is one running without a resistor in line with the thermostat, this thing is the bomb.

It just simply the wrong tool for a TXV cold plate system.
Bad thing is they are selling a model specifically for your Cool Blue now, and I donít think it can work as intended.

Graduate level I believe of a cold plate system is to determine the temp of the cold plate required to hold YOUR box at the desired temp and custom mix the eutectic fluid to match that temp, and of course the thermostat triggers off of cold plate temp, not box temp.

But who is going to go to all that trouble?
Maybe one day I will play with doing that.
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Old 03-06-2018, 15:40   #41
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Re: Danfoss AEO controller

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I still think for a thin plate evaporator, especially if there is one running without a resistor in line with the thermostat, this thing is the bomb.
It is it can help save power and optimize the system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Graduate level I believe of a cold plate system is to determine the temp of the cold plate required to hold YOUR box at the desired temp and custom mix the eutectic fluid to match that temp, and of course the thermometer triggers off of cold plate temp, not box temp.
But who is going to go to all that trouble?
Maybe one day I will play with doing that.
That's the reality of it....at what point is "good enough" really good enough or do you keep trying to get rid of those extra 4AH per Day? On "average" the Box temp is 10-Degs F warmer than the actual Holding Plate Temp. That differential is lower for better insulated Boxes and higher for worse insulated Boxes. Our Engineer clients want to tweak our "I want to Go Cruising" clients install the system and never give it another thought except for when it delivers ice cold beer and ice cream...
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Old 03-06-2018, 15:47   #42
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Re: Danfoss AEO controller

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Pete, just at a quick glance, your numbers seem to be run a 2500 RPM, which is of course the lowest speed.
My compressor is running at 4400 RPM, can you calculate for the higher RPM?
Do you run your systems at 2500 RPM?
Yes our estimator is based on 2500RPM compressor speed. We engineer our systems using larger capacity compressors and running them nominally at 2500. (Some systems to 3500 depending on the system load) In my opinion engineering a system to operate at full speed is not ideal as there is no way of getting more out of the system if it is found to be needed, its already maxed out!!
The minimum speed is 2000 RPM but not recommended as most compressors will shut down instantly if the speed momentarily drops to 1800. Drop in speed a few hundred revs can occur if there is a sudden voltage drop due to other uses of the battery supply. Running at 2000 RPM can allow nuisance tripping so best avoided.

Cheers OzePete
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Old 03-06-2018, 15:57   #43
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Re: Danfoss AEO controller

I can see the logic of running a compressor at 2500 RPM, just of course it takes a larger compressor to do so, and honestly itís been a long time since I have seen a worn out sealed compressor, these things seem to run forever.
Only reason we got rid of our last house fridge at 20+ years is the cabinet rusted and looked bad, but it still ran beautifully.
My Wifeís Grandmother only got rid of her over 40 yr old fridge when it became impossible to get a door seal for it, but it was still running if you can believe it.
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Old 03-06-2018, 16:15   #44
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Re: Danfoss AEO controller

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I can see the logic of running a compressor at 2500 RPM, just of course it takes a larger compressor to do so, and honestly itís been a long time since I have seen a worn out sealed compressor, these things seem to run forever.
Only reason we got rid of our last house fridge at 20+ years is the cabinet rusted and looked bad, but it still ran beautifully.
My Wifeís Grandmother only got rid of her over 40 yr old fridge when it became impossible to get a door seal for it, but it was still running if you can believe it.
Yes many domestic compressors do run 'forever' but they are considerably different animals being AC single phase, two pole motors and operating usually from a much cleaner power supply, in a more favourable static environment and not running at 4400 RPM!

Cheers OzePete
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Old 03-06-2018, 16:26   #45
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Re: Danfoss AEO controller

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Yes our estimator is based on 2500RPM compressor speed. We engineer our systems using larger capacity compressors and running them nominally at 2500. (Some systems to 3500 depending on the system load) In my opinion engineering a system to operate at full speed is not ideal as there is no way of getting more out of the system if it is found to be needed, its already maxed out!!
The minimum speed is 2000 RPM but not recommended as most compressors will shut down instantly if the speed momentarily drops to 1800. Drop in speed a few hundred revs can occur if there is a sudden voltage drop due to other uses of the battery supply. Running at 2000 RPM can allow nuisance tripping so best avoided.

Cheers OzePete
Rich, The Cool Blue is the most energy efficient eutectic holding plates system because it can be operated with Danfoss BD35 at 2000 Rpm without a speed change. Have you ever heard of the BD compressors while running shutting down on a low speed LED signal? Pete also talks about the need for soft start modules.
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