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Old 11-09-2010, 05:11   #1
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Crtitique this Fridge / Freezer Installation

A sister ship so be as hard as you like

A fridge / freezer is a little way off - but I took these snaps earlier this year.

Apparently an Engel was an option back in the early 70's on Seadogs and this is beleived to be original Was already on my think about list, but a 40 year life span has upped it a bit.

Engel USA MT17



Now you see it!



Now you don't!




Just some context for the installation (again, not mine)

The alternative is to custom build an installation in the same place (in either case I will need to be doing some work - my "fridge" is simply the cupboard that the Engel above sits in . except with a smaller access). Additional room below to install a compressor (and whatever ).


Although something for both installations, my initial points of thinking are whether the Engel venting (?) into the galley / saloon is likely to be a problem heat wise. and also the noise. (and also whether on the above installation it should have more venting? would some sort of fan make a difference?)


Seperately, I was thinking maybe also using a plain coolbox - either with ice or even uncooled as a food store..........or (when power rich?!) using the Engel (or a custom freezer) to freeze up some freezer blocks - the idea being to store the energy (cold energy ) for a couple of days, but I don't know whether firing up the Engel to freezer from scratch for 12 hours costs as much energy as simply maintaining it as a Fridge for 3 days?..........things with numbers in it have never been my strong point ........so no idea whether that is a maybe or a ROTFLMAO at the question

The obvious attractions (to me) of the Engel is a more straightforward installation. and being built by folk who know how to make fridges. Whereas me is early in the learning curve...........
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:59   #2
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What's the energy consumption? That always seems to be the key question about refrigeration.
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:17   #3
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Quite a toss up. An installed unit should be better insulated and remove the heat source of the opperation from the area to be cooled, being more efficient to use, yet the portable is versitile and can be easily installed and replaced.

If you have the space for the prtable freezer/fridge and the ice box and you see a need for both, even if only at times, it might be just the ticket. Although freezing ice to use for refrigeration isn't the efficient way to do it. Especially if the freezer is the less efficient one to start with.

Ohh all those darn trade offs! Doesn't everything on a boat involve the same battle?
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:27   #4
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Kipling Fruity Pies?
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Old 11-09-2010, 12:48   #5
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Originally Posted by mintyspilot View Post
What's the energy consumption? That always seems to be the key question about refrigeration.
Model Number MT17F-U1

Power consumption 0.6 - 2.3 Amps

Is that a lot of Amps for a fridge / freezer?
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Old 11-09-2010, 13:58   #6
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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Model Number MT17F-U1

Power consumption 0.6 - 2.3 Amps

Is that a lot of Amps for a fridge / freezer?
I don't think so. It is comparable to many figures I have seen for new units for boats/caravans/RVs etc. My domestic unit has an "A" rating which takes 44 watts per hour. At 12V 44W = 44/12 = 3.5A and that is a 6ft high fridge/freezer.

What about this unit Shoreline 12/24V 91L boat fridge - Ely Boat Chandlers at 0.94A per hour per day
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Old 11-09-2010, 16:55   #7
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David, just by asking the question about your refrigerator enclosure I think you know what kind of answers you will get. There is no question but that this ENGEL portable refrigerator is an excellent unit. If you follow the marine web forums you will find many boaters that have this remarkable unit and love it. None of the ice box conversion units can produce an even temperature box with a temperature range from cooler to a zero degree freezer just by changing the thermostat setting. As far as insulation it is equal or better than most aged production boats ice box insulation. Its insulation performance results I believe compares with the same thickness as VIP insulation, four degree delta T from box interior to exterior skin temperature during my tests.

Refrigeration is the process of removing heat from inside a compartment and disposing of it some where else. The ENGEL machine does not have the most efficient heat disposal condenser, in fact it would be considered a static air condenser relying on natural air movement of heat rising and cool air sinking just like the old refrigerator with condenser coils up their back. If you remember old refrigerators could not be pushed against the wall.
This ENGEL does have a 1/10 of an amp fan to help cause warmer air to rise but condenser is tubing only with no cooling fins so that true convection heat transfer can not occur efficiently. ENGELís condenser does perform well when all three sides and top of it are surrounded by a few inches of open air space.

I believe your application of the ENGEL machine destroys its efficiency and will at some point cause its electronics to fail.
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Old 11-09-2010, 17:46   #8
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Richard, I read your answer to David's question with interest. If you were going to use an Engel unit exclusively in the boat, would it be possible to modify the condenser for liquid cooling ? Maybe have the coolant supply quick connected to the fridge and use an external pump and keel cooling?
Regards, Richard.
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Old 11-09-2010, 18:17   #9
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Our NovaKool system draws about 4 amps and operates about 40% of the time in warm weather. This means we can anchor for two days and nights and still start the ngine from the house batteries (2 deep cycle) the following morning.
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Old 11-09-2010, 18:20   #10
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Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
Refrigeration is the process of removing heat from inside a compartment and disposing of it some where else. The ENGEL machine does not have the most efficient heat disposal condenser, in fact it would be considered a static air condenser relying on natural air movement of heat rising and cool air sinking just like the old refrigerator with condenser coils up their back. If you remember old refrigerators could not be pushed against the wall.

This ENGEL does have a 1/10 of an amp fan to help cause warmer air to rise but condenser is tubing only with no cooling fins so that true convection heat transfer can not occur efficiently. ENGELís condenser does perform well when all three sides and top of it are surrounded by a few inches of open air space.

I believe your application of the ENGEL machine destroys its efficiency and will at some point cause its electronics to fail.
That's useful to think about .

A couple of inches all around might be a stretch - but also might be able to put some vent holes inside the box (cupboard) that the Engel sits in, at least on a couple of sides. and underneath (to encourage / help a bit of air movement?). could maybe even drop it an inch or 2.....and / or make the worktop cover vent a bit more....errr......vented

Was also thinking maybe a small fan in the bulkhead corner aimed down at the Engel on an "every little helps" basis. or do you think not worth doing?

Cheers for the thoughts
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Old 11-09-2010, 18:25   #11
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Our NovaKool system draws about 4 amps and operates about 40% of the time in warm weather. This means we can anchor for two days and nights and still start the ngine from the house batteries (2 deep cycle) the following morning.
Ok, that's a useful benchmark
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Old 11-09-2010, 19:52   #12
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Engel v's custom fridge freezer...

I wanted a custom fridge/freezer, my wife wanted an Engel or Waeco. Guess what I'm getting?

Since the answer to the above starts with "W" I can't really comment about the Engel save that I could hear it running when we looked at demo units in the shop.

For the Waeco the ventilation would be in the wrong place. It needs cross flow across one bottom end edge.

I'm putting mine in with extra polyurethane foam all round (save needed ventilation). If I ever get to use it I'll let yous all know how it goes.
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Old 11-09-2010, 22:08   #13
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David:

I've had an Engel for about eight years and up until now have only used it as a refridgerator. This cruise I only used it in freezer mode and it worked very well. I started my current cruise with several frozen one liter bottles of water (also had three frozen quarts of milk too). These where placed in the Engel freezer to start. I used a 48 quart Coleman cooler as the refrigerator. I bought two bags of ice to start in the cooler. After it melted I put two of the frozen bottles from the Engel into the cooler. Two in the morning and swapped them out at night with two frozen bottles from the Engel. This has worked for over two weeks. So I will probably use this method on future cruises. But, I am not putting the Engel in an enclosed cabinet. They are in the main cabin where they help increase the size of the single bunk and function as a convienent seat. It is also allows easier access to the food IMO than the original ice box under the galley counter which is now used to store beer, wine and additional canned goods. My Engel uses 2.7 amps in the freezer mode. BTW using my laptop uses the same amount of amps. My two 75 watt solar panels easily keep up with demand during the day. But, I run my Honda 2000 generator (I have electric propulsion and no diesel engine) just to make sure I don't allow the batteries to be drained too much. About a half hour in the morning and evening. This is my first time trying this and I am pleased with the way it has worked out. Plus I can even have ice for boat drinks. I'm even starting to think about having ice cream on board since there is still room in the freezer for other items. I've got photos of my setup here:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: IS THIS A COOL WORLD OR WHAT!
All I can say is it worked for me. Refroze the bottles pretty quickly too. Plus the ice box does not get full of water like when you use regular ice that melts.
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Old 11-09-2010, 22:29   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Model Number MT17F-U1

Power consumption 0.6 - 2.3 Amps

Is that a lot of Amps for a fridge / freezer?
I would consider that miserly unless it never shuts off...mine is 5.9 to 6.1 on start up and settles around at 4.5 running. again with about a 40% runtime.
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Old 12-09-2010, 01:51   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Model Number MT17F-U1

Power consumption 0.6 - 2.3 Amps

Is that a lot of Amps for a fridge / freezer?
David, thats the same power consumption as our cool box which we converted into a fridge with an Isoterm kit. Except our cool box is twice the size.

Isotherm& (link doesn't drill down far enough, but it's the classic 2006 and was 300 quid.

The Engel also compares to the Waeco CF18, about the same size, 18 litres and 300 quid. Now this is a great fridge even if it did freeze my sandwiches solid the first time out in about 40 minutes.

However that Engel looks a really good fit for the cabinet on a salty dog so perhaps a little help with some ventilation as already suggested. The one other mistake I made with the Waeco 18CF was not using heavy enough wiring, so do go completely OTT when you fit it and the fridge will love you.

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