Copper Tube for Propane

[gjberta]

***** Marine Grade vs Wallimart *****

My therapist Jimmy Buffett has a songline about religion that goes “there is a fine line between Saturday night and Sunday morning” – that adage goes for what we can and can not get away aboard our boats too.

We need to dispel the myth of the fine line between marine grade and backyard mechanic components. When you hear a dock-mate / sage proclaim what he just had bought or installed for a fraction of the price than what its “marine grade” cousin would have cost, step back and think of the fine line.

We can not improvise on explosive gas lines and to some folks that is obvious. And, there are other things out there that cost more for a boat than for a car or RV, such as a battery charger - there is a very good reason for that. So we have to make some kind of judgment call as to what to opt for. There is a big need to do research because yes, there are things that we can cut corners on but we need to know how to make that call in a well informed matter….

[dirtydon]

i was just thinking about the ss tubing but with the problems mentioned here i have to agree with not using the ss tubing. seems that it would have have been a good alt,but ss does have it problems along with its benefits. as always proper install and maintanance,most system will give long service

[mesquaukee]

Unfortunantly in a lot of places (virtually all of Latin America) one cannot procure hoses with proper end fittings that are certified (check for the little silver tag) for LPG use.
In the unlikely event you were to find LPG hose it will not be considered a rated hose (in North America) as you will not find the end fittings rated for propane/butane, they will not have been installed by someone certified to do so and most importantly, no little silver tag.

Your choices are limited to reinforced PVC tubing, gas line hose, diesel fuel hose, etc. All poor choices for cooking gas though they are in general use by the population of Latin America.
There are locally produced hoses of variable quality for cooking gas installations onshore. Avoid them, they frequently fall apart or quickly degrade in the marine environment.

That leaves copper tubing should you be stuck somewhere outside of the 1st world and need to replace the cooking gas line.

[neelie]

OK.. You've all convinced me that I'm living in an I.E.D. that the Taliban would be proud of. Despite it looking perfect, I will change my copper to rubber ASAP.

Can someone please give me the exact specs or Part No. for the correct rubber hose.

Thanks

[Jim Cate]

G'Day All,

Very interesting thread! FWIW, here in Australia (at least in Qld.) copper tube is mandated for these instalations, and the only place flexible tubing is allowed is in the last bit to a gimballed (sp?) stove. Such conflicting regulations are kinda confusing to the casual observer, to say nothing of the American owner of an Aussie-built boat which is of necessity registered in the US, but which spends much of its time in Oz! What's a mother to do??

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Broken Bay, NSW Oz

[mesquaukee]

Originally Posted by neelie

OK.. You've all convinced me that I'm living in an I.E.D. that the Taliban would be proud of. Despite it looking perfect, I will change my copper to rubber ASAP.

Can someone please give me the exact specs or Part No. for the correct rubber hose.

Thanks

Check out this website:

LP Gas Parts and Accessories

Somewhere in there you will find a "certified" LPG hose of the right length and any other fittings, regulators, etc. you might need.

I prefer living in an I.E.D. (Improved Expeditionary Device)
I wonder what the Aussies know about Rubber?

[James S]

Originally Posted by gjberta

NO

Why would we not use what is suggested for the purpose by the experts?
When you are working with explosive stuff experimenting is not an option!
(Stainless steel corrodes worse than mild steel in certain conditions, referred to as "crevice corrosion", such as when it is shielded from oxigen, which is what you do when securing it out of harm's way with ties or clips.....)

What experts are you referring to?

[bobfnbw]

I seem to recall that copper tubing was the prefered way to to this before. I think Nigel Calder recomended it.
But I agree that today, the right high pressure hose is the best way. Just make sure there are NO connections in the boat except the one to your stove. Get a sniffer and propane shut off solidnoid, and mount it away from the stove. Make sure your fire extinguishers are up to date and not next to the stove. Make sure your propane locker is well vented.

Me, I uninstalled our propane stove when the boat sunk and have not put it back on yet. I have new propane line, solonoid, sniffer etc waiting, new fiberglass tanks etc.
But the thought of another disaster waiting to happen is not to keen with me.
When I redesigned the electrical system, I specifically wanted to ability to cook electricaly. Before anyone has a fit, its not hard to do. The main cooking tool will be a sharp microwave convection steam oven. Its pricey, but less than the stove/oven is . Then a induction cook top, total of 1800 watts on high, but never need to use at that level. Third is a propane grill on the stern. I may still reinstall the stove/oven but not sure at this point. Its a down the road thing.
Bob

[Morganministry]

As to the original question of the thread, Yes definately replace the tubing. I see signs of pitting in the picture. That copper will not last much longer.

My experience with rubber hose,(Yes this is on an RV). The hoses that I get from the propane supply companies like Suburban and Amerigas have the same problem. After about 2 years the rubber gets hard and then moving it (Like when you change tanks) will cause it to start leaking. The leaks 99% of the time start at the ends of the hoses near the fittings. Some how the fitting will lose its seal with the rubber hose.

Given that it appears copper was originaly used, I would replace it with copper. I've read the posts here about the RVs being different, but in this case RVs do a hole lot of flexing, vibrating and all kinds of twisting while they are being pulled. And copper holds up very well in these circumstances. I had one RV about 6 years ago, where a tire blew out and the rubber hit my copper feed line hard enough that it almost kinked it. I never did anything to the line and it is still working to this day (not Leaking).

Advice is worth what you pay for it. When you are dealing with something like this it might be in your best intrest to talk to a propane dealer (not a gas station) or some one in the business of installing propane systems on boats and get their opinion.

Scott

[James S]

This is a link to a ICOMIA guide line for LPG systems and appliances.

http://www.icomia.com/technical-info...%202%20LPG.pdf


And another excellent guide

http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Portals/0/...nApril2004.pdf

This show that SS is acceptable...not my preference.

[johnar]

Now if you really want to be safe use rubber inside copper inside stainless. Joking

[sailvayu]

Scott the BIG difference between RV's and boats in this case is that a propane leak in a RV can leak out to the ground. As I recall most propane lines on RVs are run outside the living space. Boats area big bowl that will hold any gas leak even a small one can build up an explosive amount.

I will admit if good hose was not available my second choice would be copper tube.

I suppose this brings up a good point any propane installation whether with hose or tube should be inspected on a regular basis. The reason ABYC and USCG require the use of a gauge on your system is not so that you know how much propane you have but to allow you to test the integrity of your system. It's a good idea to check your gauge often when the system is off to insure you have no leaks. Turn the system on pressurize all the lines then turn off just the tank, come back in a couple of hours and recheck the gauge should be reading the same, if it leaks down you may have a problem.

This has been a good discussion and I hope a few who have read it will now go and check their systems out. I think propane is a great fuel for cooking, it is cheap easy to get and efficient. You just need to use a basic amount of caution and inspect your system routinely whether you use copper tube or hose.

Fair Winds

[Strygaldwir]

I trust you have a propane alarm also? We have a Xintex s2-a alarm/shut-off valve. One of the sensors is in the propane locker, the other is near the connection under the stove. We shut the valve off when we are not using the stove. We turn the tank valve off when we are going to be away from the boat for an extended period. The only issue has been when one of the sensors died, and we could not use the stove for a couple of days. Of course you have the rated rubber hose resolved. There are certain things to take chances on, others not. Gasoline and propane are two critical things I REALLY like to take a FEW chances on as feasible.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by sailvayu

Scott the BIG difference between RV's and boats in this case is that a propane leak in a RV can leak out to the ground. As I recall most propane lines on RVs are run outside the living space. Boats area big bowl that will hold any gas leak even a small one can build up an explosive amount.

I will admit if good hose was not available my second choice would be copper tube.

I suppose this brings up a good point any propane installation whether with hose or tube should be inspected on a regular basis. The reason ABYC and USCG require the use of a gauge on your system is not so that you know how much propane you have but to allow you to test the integrity of your system. It's a good idea to check your gauge often when the system is off to insure you have no leaks. Turn the system on pressurize all the lines then turn off just the tank, come back in a couple of hours and recheck the gauge should be reading the same, if it leaks down you may have a problem.

This has been a good discussion and I hope a few who have read it will now go and check their systems out. I think propane is a great fuel for cooking, it is cheap easy to get and efficient. You just need to use a basic amount of caution and inspect your system routinely whether you use copper tube or hose.

Fair Winds

Not fair. You regularly cite ABYC then give hours for a leak check. My understanding is that ABYC says to wait 3 minutes to do the leak check. The local propane guru shop recommends 10-15 minutes, just to be extra safe. Now we're up to hours.

John

[mesquaukee]

Whether you use certified hose or copper tubing (depending on the jurisdiction) there will always be a chance of failure. Even gas sniffers will fail due to faulty wiring etc.

Should a leak occur the amount of gas that could possibly leak out needs to be minimized since for an explosion to occur the ratio of gas to air has to reach a minimum threshold.
Minimizing the length of hose or tubing after the shutoff valve would minimize the volume of gas that could escape. This would mean running the line on the exterior of the boat to as close as possible to the cook stove, mount a shutoff valve, then lead it inside.
A few feet of line holds so little gas that it is unlikely that the ratio of gas to air could ever reach the explosive limit.

Nothing beats frequent inspections of the lines and fittings and periodically testing for leaks.