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Old 25-08-2016, 06:55   #106
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
We do need to clarify my "poo pooing" comment about the Blue Board for insulation because without the context of my Poo-poo it's a little misleading. I don't have a problem with using Blue Board at all. The discussion was about what insulation product would give you the best R-value and then weighing in the water absorption characteristics. Polyisocyanurate (R-6.5/inch) has a 30% better R-value than Blue Board (R-5.0/inch) and in my opinion can be installed in a way that will deal with the risks of water entry, so since space is almost always an issue for people, I prefer to use Polyiso over Blue board. That's not really poo-pooing the Blue Board it's just ranking it on a scale of good vs better.
My fault. I should have explained my poo poo statement better.
Please except my apologies.
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Old 25-08-2016, 07:06   #107
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

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Hi Typhoon, I do have a Cool Blue system. Mentioned this previously (I think it was this thread).
Although my box has had extra insulation added to the inside, and short of an expansion valve problem that I think I have, I'm just looking for the most efficient system that I can get to get my Ah's down.

I agree, I don't think anyone makes a thin plate evaporator w/ an expansion valve. I have been toying with gutting two holdover plates by removing their outer housing and liquid and just install the tubes into the freezer compartment. Kinda like old freezers did with the evaporator coils actually being the shelf racks.

But as of yet, no one has given any info as to which type of system, both with expansion valves, would be theoretically more efficient.

I don't want to go through all the effort of installing evaporator coil tubes if in fact the holding plate system that I currently have is the most miser.

Hey missourisailor, Can't really tell you which would be more efficient , I have never done any testing like that, all can tell you is my system with the TXV and flat rollbond plate has turned out to be amazingly efficient . The system consists of an 8 cf fridge only, insulated with 5 inches of polyiso board and one layer of blue board . The two top doors are 2' of Areogell to keep them thin . I use a STC1000 thermostat to control the BD35 compressor . You can see photos of my build here .

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/stc-1000

Fridge uses 20AH a day with a temp range of 2 to 4 degrees Celsius, water temperature of 25C and air temp inside boat at an average of 30C

BD35 compressor not making frost on plate .

I hope this is a little help .

Regards
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Old 25-08-2016, 07:37   #108
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

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My fault. I should have explained my poo poo statement better.
Please except my apologies.
No apology needed...I knew what you were saying but not everyone has all the context to my comment and I know how Chat Room Rumors go...ha ha

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Originally Posted by missourisailor View Post
But as of yet, no one has given any info as to which type of system, both with expansion valves, would be theoretically more efficient.

I don't want to go through all the effort of installing evaporator coil tubes if in fact the holding plate system that I currently have is the most miser.
There have been so many different threads about what refrigeration system is the "best" that I lose track on what question I have answered, in what thread, and when. We have not done any testing with an R10 Box, as you laid out in your question, so I can't give you test data on that Box. BUT what I do know, is that if you put a TXV on a Holding Plate and then on a Rolled Aluminum Evaporation Plate of equal sizes in identical boxes the differences in energy usage will be so close that I'm not even going to get into the science behind the small difference because it damn near irrelevant. You will have some wasted energy as the Thin Evap starts and stops about 100-150 times in a 24hr window, compared to the 4-10 times for the Holding plate system. But how many Amp hours is that a day...not much. You also have more wear and tear on the compressor...but so what because in most cases these compressors will outlast your time with the Boat. But, and you have heard this from Richard K over and over, a holding plate is storing Cold when you have excess power available, so if that describes your boat and how you set up your system then that could indeed push the holding plate over the top in efficiency by as much as 30%. But if you have no excess power...then call a TXV system Holding Plate vs Thin Rolled Evaporator with a TXV equal.

Now if that is the case why not make such a system and why doesn't anyone make them?
1. Thin Rolled Aluminum evaporators have a MUCH higher failure rate than a SS Holding plate.
2. You do get the advantage of being able to "store cold" inside the holding plate that you don't get with an evaporator.


If you already have a CoolBlue then you already have the most energy efficient set-up, so if you are not happy with your power usage or temps then we need to look at how the system is tuned (Compressor Health, TXV setpoint, and Charge) on the refrigerator system side and then box size and insulation on the box side of the equation.

I can tell you from real life testing that you won't improve the performance by putting a TXV on a coil of copper tubes and having them exposed in the Box. A company out of Seattle, WA makes a set-up like that (Sea Freeze of America) and we have done side-by-side testing comparing their set-up.

I'm not just "always here" on Cruisers Forum, I'm always available to help with your CoolBlue via email and phone if you want to review the process of checking the Big 3 things that affect CoolBlue performance (Charge, TXV setpoint, and Compressor Health).

Now something I see all the time is someone bought a boat with a 14CF box divided in half between a freezer and refrigerator with 40yr old poor insulation. They call to figure out why their CoolBlue runs all the time. Well that's easy...the Box is simply too large for the system...more BTUs are coming in than can be removed. The CoolBlue isn't magic and can't bend the laws of physics. So it's not an excuse, cop-out or salesman lie to say that the CoolBlue could be running perfectly but the box sucks and that's true for any brand of marine refrigeration system.

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Old 25-08-2016, 15:16   #109
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

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We have not done any testing with an R10 Box, as you laid out in your question, so I can't give you test data on that Box.
I used the "R10" number because I believe that is what most boxes can reasonably be insulated to without too much effort.
I.E. 2" of "Blue Foam".
But mainly just to remove yet another variable.

I would be most interested in a real world test on a box that is more like what most have. I.E. Piss poor insulation. Instead of one that has 6" of the best insulation know to man and can keep ice frozen for months at a time without any mechanical heat removal.


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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
BUT what I do know, is that if you put a TXV on a Holding Plate and then on a Rolled Aluminum Evaporation Plate of equal sizes in identical boxes the differences in energy usage will be so close that I'm not even going to get into the science behind the small difference because it damn near irrelevant.
This too is also what I believe. But was posing the question to see if any one has heard of such a test being done.

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I can tell you from real life testing that you won't improve the performance by putting a TXV on a coil of copper tubes and having them exposed in the Box. A company out of Seattle, WA makes a set-up like that (Sea Freeze of America) and we have done side-by-side testing comparing their set-up.
This is mostly what I was thinking. But instead of just coils of copper tubes, I was more thinking of using two holding plates. Like A64 has. But with the covers and solution removed. And even using them as shelves instead of being mounted on the walls.

But.....
This is just me thinking about possible solutions to the long run times that I now have.

I'll be back on the boat the first week of Sept., and plan on doing the tests that we have previously discussed.
Like I said, I think that I have a mal-adjusted expansion valve. But won't know till I put the gauges on the system. So this whole discussion might just be for not.
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Old 25-08-2016, 15:41   #110
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

The main advantage of the dual holding plate set-up like A64 is that it gives you more surface area for heat absorption into the holding plates and it also doubles the amount of BTU absorption capacity of the eutectic solution. As boxes get bigger the increase helps in both heat removal and keeping the lower freezer temps. So now your compressor will run Longer to freeze down the plates on each run cycle, but the compressor will also stay off longer because of the increased BTU capacity in the holding plate. So you can do the math and calculate that the total power usage won't change all that much unless your single holding plate is undersized and the dual plate set-up is able to pull out a lot more heat than the single plate.

From experience I find most cruisers have a R20 Box, if they were truly down at R10...well they had better throw another 100W solar panel on the boat to make up for the extra power usage.
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Old 25-08-2016, 16:10   #111
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
The main advantage of the dual holding plate set-up like A64 is that it gives you more surface area for heat absorption into the holding plates and it also doubles the amount of BTU absorption capacity of the eutectic solution. As boxes get bigger the increase helps in both heat removal and keeping the lower freezer temps. So now your compressor will run Longer to freeze down the plates on each run cycle, but the compressor will also stay off longer because of the increased BTU capacity in the holding plate. So you can do the math and calculate that the total power usage won't change all that much unless your single holding plate is undersized and the dual plate set-up is able to pull out a lot more heat than the single plate.

From experience I find most cruisers have a R20 Box, if they were truly down at R10...well they had better throw another 100W solar panel on the boat to make up for the extra power usage.
What the....... rich that adding a panel is my line
What about using that ensolite foam some of it has an r value of 3.5 for .625 thickness which would figure out to about R7 per inch at a cost of 8 bucks for a 24".x. 72" roll and extremely flexible and waterproof seems like an idea for lids .
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Old 25-08-2016, 16:20   #112
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

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What the....... rich that adding a panel is my line


What about using that ensolite foam some of it has an r value of 3.5 for .625 thickness which would figure out to about R7 per inch at a cost of 8 bucks for a 24".x. 72" roll and extremely flexible and waterproof seems like an idea for lids .
Well it was too good a line to pass up...and it really goes to the heart of the issue. If you want to have the most inefficient refrigeration system possible and undersize it to add to the fun in a Box with crappy insulation you can to a point. Just have enough solar to run it 24hrs per day. At 5amps that would be 120AH/day. But the catch is that if by running 24hrs/day you can only keep a 33deg freezer and 50deg refrigerator...then well...all the solar in the world won't help you.

I haven't played around with the ensolite product....so I'm not sure how good/bad that stuff is.
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Old 25-08-2016, 16:23   #113
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

If say you used a couple of transmission coolers that look a lot like what Rich showed the insides of one of his cold plates look like as shelves, they would be very easily damaged.
The cold plate is in one way less efficient as ice is a decent insulator, but in another it adds efficiency as it works as a sort of flywheel allowing longer cycle times.
Then there is lab efficiency where say a thin rolled plate is completely free of frost and ice, and then there is real world efficiency where it has considerable ice build up, cause you had better not try physical removal of the ice, just warm water or letting it melt on its on, so on average it will have considerable ice build up, cause they are very easily damaged being thin aluminum, and damage of course lets the refrigerant out and air and moisture in.
Another downside of using something like a transmission cooler as the evaporator is it would likely work well for one day, by day two I would think the fins would be completely clogged with ice and you cannot scrape ice off of those fins like you can the smooth outside of a cold plate, keeping the evaporator free of ice has to increase the efficiency as ice is a decent insulator.
So now that I think about it for just a second, whatever evaporator you chose, try to make sure it can take the physical abuse of scraping ice off of it, cause we are not frost free. The only downside to a cold plate that I can see other than cost is it does take up slightly more room as it is I think 2.5" thick.
Sorry I'm not real organized with my thoughts here, it is sort of just free thinking.



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Old 25-08-2016, 18:31   #114
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

A64,
Boy I really messed up on my description.
What I mean is kinda like what the insides of the holding plate would look like with the cover removed. No fins, just the tubing.

I've owned several old upright freezers and have repaired many more walk in's that had the shelves doing double duty as both shelves and the evaporator.
None of them had auto defrost, so to defrost you had to scrape the shelves.
Old tech, but as far as I know, they are still working. Oldest son has one of our old upright freezer and at 50+ years, still doing it's job.

But you did bring up a good point about frost build up. There would be more build up on a boat set up as we tend to open the doors more than we do on a residential freezer. Which would be more of a problem.

Last time we were on the boat, and after the system was properly serviced, had no problem with keeping both boxes at near set point. Fridge would cycle at 35f with no problem. and evaporator would stay under 5~7f, but would run for 20 hours a day.
So yes I can add more solar, but if there is another problem (besides insulation) I would like to address it before dealing with how better to keep the heat out.
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Old 25-08-2016, 18:49   #115
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

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The main advantage of the dual holding plate set-up like A64 is that it gives you more surface area for heat absorption into the holding plates and it also doubles the amount of BTU absorption capacity of the eutectic solution.
Rich,
Let for now assume that we have determined that a second holding plate would be of help.

Would there be any advantage to installing them as "shelves" as opposed to mounting them on the wall/s?

My thought is that it would help because all six sides would be able to absorb heat in the shelf configuration. On a wall mount only 5 sides would be exposed. With one of the larger square surfaces smack up against the wall and only able to soak up heat from the wall.

I would think that even if you mount it/them on stand-offs away from the wall, it would be better than right up against it (as mine is now)

What are your thoughts?
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Old 25-08-2016, 19:09   #116
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

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Rich,
Let for now assume that we have determined that a second holding plate would be of help.

Would there be any advantage to installing them as "shelves" as opposed to mounting them on the wall/s?

My thought is that it would help because all six sides would be able to absorb heat in the shelf configuration. On a wall mount only 5 sides would be exposed. With one of the larger square surfaces smack up against the wall and only able to soak up heat from the wall.

I would think that even if you mount it/them on stand-offs away from the wall, it would be better than right up against it (as mine is now)

What are your thoughts?
Holding plates should to be mounted away from the "wall", hence you still have 6 sides.
Not sure why folks are sceptical to holding plates? Works good, last a long time.
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Old 26-08-2016, 10:38   #117
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

Again this thread keeps diverting away from the real facts about the thermodynamics of heat absorption by induction and convection. Holdover eutectic plates are not efficient conductors of heat . Heat in these icebox conversions freezer or refrigerators is not absorbed well without air movement. Heat layers in a box stratify horizontally and vertical in layers. Heat absorbing evaporators whether standard design or located inside holdover plates need to create natural convection by surface area exposure or convection of heat by air movement. For at least one hundred years boxes used to store food located the heat absorbing ice or refrigerator evaporator in the top of box. Heat movement 101 tells us heat rises and cold descends if there is a conductor to move it. Frost, ice and slow to conduct heat mass like most holding plates are less efficiency evaporators.. If air is the natural conductor of heat within any refrigerated box then arrangement of product and evaporator within a box is important for natural or mechanical air tumbling. Most common refrigerators and freezers have air passages in shelving to allow for air natural tumbling.

Most boat icebox conversion refrigeration units with one holding plate are poor freezer applications and produce only short term food taste quality. A freezer requires more than one plate or evaporators that surround the frozen product.

After spending 30 years manufacturing more than 200 holdover eutectic solution holding plate and assisting maybe 1000 boaters in designing icebox conversion refrigeration systems I am amazed by the distortion of facts I read on the internet. I had four separate test units, two in my shop and two on my boats. I still have the test units in my shop where varies controls allow me to duplicate other boaters reported trouble. The system in my sailboat had three holding plates containing a total of eight gallons of eutectic solution. There were five expansion valves and three capillary tubes controlling refrigerant flow. The sailboat system was a thirty year old Hybrid engine drive and one Danfoss 12 volt BD 2.5 air-cooled compressor. All three holding plates could be frozen by running either or both engine drive or just the one BD 2,5 twelve volt compressor.
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Old 26-08-2016, 10:46   #118
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

Richard, I fail to see your point?
Maybe it's just me, but what are you trying to say? I would think it impractical to mount the evaporator in the door of a top opening boat fridge / freezer, a tiny fan is so much easier
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Old 26-08-2016, 11:05   #119
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

I fail to understand or see Richards point as well .
In all of the top opening holding plate conversions I have seen or done the eutectic plate is mounted vertically on one of the sidewalls . In the front opening systems I have installed it was mounted to the top of the box with an insulated dividing shelf between freezer and fridge.
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Old 26-08-2016, 11:13   #120
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Re: CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

I think what he is trying to say is that a flat roll bond evaporator plate has better thermal conductivity due to its greater surface area. This induces more air turbulence in side the box , that being said I am on my way today to pick up a small micro fan to put inside a tube to achieve better air mixing inside my box . To damn cold on the bottom , freezes my veggies . I have teak grating for shelving that gives plenty of air flow , but still need a little fan lift tube .
Richard I have all your books and have read them and referenced to them many times , I know you have done tests using fans in boxes and without and understand that you did not find any amp hour gain from using them . As this is not my goal i have no expectations of this conserving energy , I just want to stop freezing my veggies.

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