Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-03-2014, 19:54   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 379
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

CO2 liquid, which is what you buy in a CO2 storage tank, has a pressure of about 1070 PSI at 30 degrees C. Your tanks will probably be permenantly damaged by less than 10 PSI. You are plumbing the CO2 tank to your water tanks, with isolation valves/regulators to keep this from happening. You are talking about building a system which has the potential to blow the hell out of your tanks. Yes, if everything works right that won't happen. And if things fail yes it could happen. This is not a great idea. Neither is it "simple" to execute in the real world.
__________________

__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 21:19   #32
Registered User
 
nimblemotors's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sacramento, California
Boat: Solar 40ft Cat :)
Posts: 1,557
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

I went and filled my keg with 4 gallons of water, I pressurized it with 50psi of c02, disconnected the co2 tank. Now I have a tank of water connected to my faucet.
It will dispense 4 gallons of water with no pump. It is not carbonated. Maybe it will be after a while. I think I use the 4 gallons before then.

I'm sure I will kill myself and my family this way. My 20lb aluminum tank of C02 should pump 1000 gallons of water (until it rusts).
How long does it take to use 1000 gallons?
How often do you refill your propane tank? Oh my god, don't use a propane tank!!
It needs to be refilled!! It has pressure, it can leak, you will die die die die.
__________________

__________________
JackB
MiniMPPT Solar Controller
nimblemotors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 23:05   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 1,378
Images: 7
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

possible-impractical-improbable.

I have two electric pumps, one for salt and one for fresh and a step-on home made electric rocker switch. Step on the left side for fresh and on the right side for salt. Outlet spigots at the sink are also on the left and right sides. Works well, no pressurized hoses to come off and fill the boat with water whilst I am off drinking coffee and stuff.
__________________
RaymondR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 04:26   #34
Senior Cruiser
 
bletso's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Louisville, KY
Boat: Globe, cutter/ketch,38
Posts: 546
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Don't forget that you will be dissolving some of the CO2 in the water and creating weak carbonic acid, a skin irritant and could hasten the demise of faucet parts.
__________________
www.sailboatvigah.com Boats don't like being neglected, but then neither do significant others!
bletso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 07:09   #35
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
possible-impractical-improbable.

I have two electric pumps, one for salt and one for fresh and a step-on home made electric rocker switch. Step on the left side for fresh and on the right side for salt. Outlet spigots at the sink are also on the left and right sides. Works well, no pressurized hoses to come off and fill the boat with water whilst I am off drinking coffee and stuff.
That's what you think… take the feed hose off the pump and tell us if it fills the boat with water whilst we have another cuppa
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 09:32   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 379
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

There are lots of ways to engineer a system that will work. The definition of good engineering is not whether something will work. It is rather that the design is the best possible solution to the needs of that particular system. Judging what is "best" requires weighing a number of factors and seeing how they all add up.

You've built your system and you're happy with it. Good for you. Your mockery does not change in the slightest the physical realities of your design. The odds are very good that it will serve you well. But I can tell you with absolute certainty that if I proposed this design at an engineering design review it would be shot down in flames. Because the companies I engineer for understand, and respect, this thing called statistical probability. Companies that manufacture products live and die by it.

By the way, I imagine you know that propane is dangerous. That's why there are specific design rules and safety systems.

Are you aware that CO2 in sufficient concentration is lethal? 10% CO2 will create first unconsciousness, then death. CO2 is heavier than air, so it will remain in the hull, just llike propane. Have you done the math on what concentration your 20 lb tank of CO2 will produce inside your hull? If the system experiences a significant leak and can reach lethal levels (it is odorless and invisible) then you are betting your live and the lives of the others on board on the hermeticity of your fittings. Ever seen a piece of plumbing fail?
__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 09:44   #37
Registered User
 
leftbrainstuff's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Francisco and Australia
Boat: Liberty 458
Posts: 1,979
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Your proposal to use co2 or nitrogen in an enclosed space will introduce a number of hazards that are not present with a simple electric positive displacement pump and accumulator.

The noise of the elec pump gives you feedback on air in the system or low water level. Low tech, simple and proven.

Gas charging is risky (non breathable in enclosed space), and requires some complicated sensing and switching to deal with low gas, low water, gas leak, etc.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
leftbrainstuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 11:44   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 227
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Originally Posted by RaymondR
possible-impractical-improbable.

I have two electric pumps, one for salt and one for fresh and a step-on home made electric rocker switch. Step on the left side for fresh and on the right side for salt. Outlet spigots at the sink are also on the left and right sides. Works well, no pressurized hoses to come off and fill the boat with water whilst I am off drinking coffee and stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
That's what you think… take the feed hose off the pump and tell us if it fills the boat with water whilst we have another cuppa
Because RaymondR wrote "spigot" instead of "tap" or "faucet" I assumed that he had pumps without pressure switches or accumulators. If those pumps are also self-priming and above each water level then isn't his system safe but for shorted switches or a failure at the seawater intake?
__________________
bornyesterday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 14:56   #39
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by bornyesterday View Post
Because RaymondR wrote "spigot" instead of "tap" or "faucet" I assumed that he had pumps without pressure switches or accumulators. If those pumps are also self-priming and above each water level then isn't his system safe but for shorted switches or a failure at the seawater intake?
It would be, but often the foot pumps are below the tanks and thus the feed hose is pressurized by gravity, and all water from the tank will run out in case of a leak.

Also, hot water doesn't do well with foot pumps.

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 15:23   #40
Registered User
 
nimblemotors's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sacramento, California
Boat: Solar 40ft Cat :)
Posts: 1,557
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

I appreciate your concern and information.
Are the soda fountains with Co2 tanks in restaurants too dangerous
and should be banned? How many deaths have been blamed on them?
Can we compare this to Propane tanks which are common on boats?

I can use compressed air instead of Co2, or Nitrogen tanks or SCUBA tanks,
but Co2 is a much lower pressure tank, 900psi vs 3000psi and thus the tanks are much lighter and less expensive and of course...I already have them. These old Coke kegs are stainless steel are tough as nails, and have lasted decades and will be around long after 5 gallon plastic jugs are leaking and disposed of. I will probably buy a few more, and keep all my fresh water in them.

I will have a water maker too, that will dispense its product into the kegs.
I do have an idea to make and sell ice cream, and rootbeer floats would be a nice addition to the offering, if I could only make carbonated rootbeer somehow...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauls View Post
There are lots of ways to engineer a system that will work. The definition of good engineering is not whether something will work. It is rather that the design is the best possible solution to the needs of that particular system. Judging what is "best" requires weighing a number of factors and seeing how they all add up.

You've built your system and you're happy with it. Good for you. Your mockery does not change in the slightest the physical realities of your design. The odds are very good that it will serve you well. But I can tell you with absolute certainty that if I proposed this design at an engineering design review it would be shot down in flames. Because the companies I engineer for understand, and respect, this thing called statistical probability. Companies that manufacture products live and die by it.

By the way, I imagine you know that propane is dangerous. That's why there are specific design rules and safety systems.

Are you aware that CO2 in sufficient concentration is lethal? 10% CO2 will create first unconsciousness, then death. CO2 is heavier than air, so it will remain in the hull, just llike propane. Have you done the math on what concentration your 20 lb tank of CO2 will produce inside your hull? If the system experiences a significant leak and can reach lethal levels (it is odorless and invisible) then you are betting your live and the lives of the others on board on the hermeticity of your fittings. Ever seen a piece of plumbing fail?
__________________
JackB
MiniMPPT Solar Controller
nimblemotors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 11:20   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 379
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

The difference between a restaurant and your boat is that a restaurant has large openings at floor level. Leaked CO2 (or propane) will collect at floor level because it is heavier than air. It will flow out the doors and any low level exhaust vents.

A boat is a leak tight hull with openings around the top (ports, hatches). Heavier than air gasses can accumulate and build up. That's why boats have a bunch of rules for propane that are not required for buildings. It's why boats occassionally blow up from propane, when it is mishandled.

CO2 and propane are similar in that they are both heavier than air gases and both have the potential to be lethal.
__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 11:46   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,157
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
You know, Jack, there's a reason why the world uses small electric pumps for pressure water, and not CO2 systems. Sure, pumps fail. pressure tanks leak. But someone has to compress the CO2, and refill the tanks, and certify the tanks, and the gas plumbing can spring a leak too.

Just saying...the entire world might not have gotten it wrong when they chose to use electric pressure pumps for pressure water systems.
You're exactly right. A lot of very smart people have looked at the problem, and the universal answer was "a pump."

You sound like me when I was talking to my stubborn friend. He wanted to reinvent the wheel, making it square instead of round. I mentioned to him that the rest of the world had already solved that problem fairly simply and elegantly. His long suffering GF interrupted and said, "Save your breath. You call him stubborn, I call him a jackass. Either way, he's not listening."


This is the worst idea ever. I'm more afraid of a CO2 leak than I am of a propane leak, since propane smells and alerts you, CO2 doesn't. After using the exact setup he's talking about in my homebrewing rig (10 lb CO2 bottle feeding 3x 5 gal soda kegs through a regulator) I've come to realize that regulators can fail too, and it can overpressurize your plumbing or container. Now you've got water and CO2 to deal with.

Electric pumps aren't perfect, but the good ones last a very long time and are cheap to rebuild if necessary. When I hear the pump cycle at random, I know there's a water leak somewhere I need to track down. Regulators have rubber diaphragms, they eventually break as well.
__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 12:02   #43
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauls View Post
The difference between a restaurant and your boat is that a restaurant has large openings at floor level. Leaked CO2 (or propane) will collect at floor level because it is heavier than air. It will flow out the doors and any low level exhaust vents.

A boat is a leak tight hull with openings around the top (ports, hatches). Heavier than air gasses can accumulate and build up. That's why boats have a bunch of rules for propane that are not required for buildings. It's why boats occassionally blow up from propane, when it is mishandled.

CO2 and propane are similar in that they are both heavier than air gases and both have the potential to be lethal.
+1

CO2 is a terrible idea, with deadly risks on a boat. Compressed air would be the right gas if you insist on this wacky solution, but I would surely go with a pump, myself.

Can you really not find anything else to tinker with on your boat, that you need to reinvent pressure water?
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 12:29   #44
Registered User
 
Blue Crab's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hurricane Highway
Boat: Cal 29
Posts: 3,883
pirate Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

You are killing us Jack! This is another in a goodly string of ideas you've had that ran against the herd thinking of the rest of us sheeple. I dunno why ya bother running some of these ideas up the flagpole when ya must know we have deck guns at the ready. AAARRRGGGHHH mate.

I have pressurized H/C water but it's not very important to me. When the electric pump fails, I'll move the hoses to the Gusher foot pump. Forever. Better sun showers/rain than humping water in the dinghy. A watermaker is not in my KISS gameplan. The HW heater looks newish but I bet it fails before I do.

Be a shame if ya never launch because of all the stuff you'd like to have.
__________________
Blue Crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2014, 14:04   #45
Registered User
 
nimblemotors's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sacramento, California
Boat: Solar 40ft Cat :)
Posts: 1,557
Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
You are killing us Jack! This is another in a goodly string of ideas you've had that ran against the herd thinking of the rest of us sheeple. I dunno why ya bother running some of these ideas up the flagpole when ya must know we have deck guns at the ready. AAARRRGGGHHH mate.

I have pressurized H/C water but it's not very important to me. When the electric pump fails, I'll move the hoses to the Gusher foot pump. Forever. Better sun showers/rain than humping water in the dinghy. A watermaker is not in my KISS gameplan. The HW heater looks newish but I bet it fails before I do.

Be a shame if ya never launch because of all the stuff you'd like to have.
Indeed, little gained in asking about different ideas.

So the answer to my question: Has anyone tried this? is no.

Co2 concentrating I think is an unlikely danger, but it is possible, so I agree for a normal cave-boat with little ventalation there is some danger from a leaking co2 tank of large capacity.

My boat will have one floor, there is no 'below', so there is no danger.

And BTW, I will not be out cruising not for lack of a water pump, it is because my significant other wants to stay working until her house is paid off before she will go cruising. Thus I have plenty of time to plan and build.
__________________

__________________
JackB
MiniMPPT Solar Controller
nimblemotors is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
water

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:47.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.