Composting toilets or wet sewage systems

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

Speaking of misinformation. Wet heads sink more boats than any other cause? Really? Does anyone have any hard data on this?

That ONE extra seacock is such a huge danger? -more so than the sink drain in the head, or the sink drain in the galley? Do people never turn their seacocks off when they leave the boat? Is one more seacock of the many others to shut off that big of a deal? Am I the only one who has a seawater faucet in the galley, and is using the same thru-hull to feed it and the head so eliminating a wet head would save ZERO thru-hulls? How is a turned-off seacock such a safety concern? Do people not understand how a siphon break works or how to install one?

I am always surprised at how few boats that I am on which actually have the wet heads plumbed properly. Many lack a siphon break between the pump and the bowl so it is impossible for a siphon to overfill the bowl and flood the boat if the head is left switched to "wet pump."

The popular YouTube sailing channel Wicked Salty just lost a boat which sank at its mooring this past fall, but it wasn't a head siphon as many people suspected, They said in their latest video that the head sink drain hose fell off at the sink, and the hose end dropped below the water line.

So are people going to also remove their sink in the head when they remove their wet heads? Are they just going to give up on washing hands and simply walk away from any of the benefits of modern plumbing on their boats?

I said "I suspect" wet heads cause more sinkings than any other cause. In fact, I read that somewhere, but I don't recall where.

At any rate, you answered your own question. Wet heads, improperly installed (with no siphon block or a clogged one), can sink a boat.

I was just speaking of my preferences and views on the topic. It's not an argument.

Cheers!

[Copacabana]

From David Pascoe:

"For sailboats, the most common cause [of sinking] is improper head installation, sink drains, inadequate bilge pumps and battery systems that don't supply enough power to run the pumps."

How to Prevent Your Boat from Sinking: Boats and Yachts Maintenance and Troubleshooting :

My point was that a composting toilet removes that risk (head causing the boat to sink). In the same way, I have tried to remove all seacocks or holes in the hull that are not absolutely essential. I've got it down to 3 (and 2 cockpit drains). This may be a concern for some people, not for others.

[smj]

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/maga...oat-afloat.asp

[BlackHeron]

There are many items and systems on a boat which, when used or installed incorrectly, can sink the boat.

I feel that sinks are just as dangerous or even more so than the wet head system. I've seen some pretty awful kludges between the bottom of sink bowls and the thru-hull, cobbled adapters and assorted connections which could all fail below the waterline. Add to that fact that many boats have hot (really hot) water going down those sinks at times, and the danger is real.

Think about that the next time you pour off boiling water after cooking noodles or similar down your sink what that is doing to your sink drain system below. How many people use exhaust hose rated for below waterline use on their galley sinks? How many are just using PVC hose? Ever see any PVC hose rated for 100C? It doesn't need to actually burst right then, just get soft enough to partially tear/cut at the hose clamp which might be a little too tightly fastened. Then it's just a matter of time before the stub rips & falls off the last half of an inch of the tailpiece going into the seacock.

[jbbacque]

<weighing-in while at unweighed-anchor in the Bahamas, our dessicator in use since Florida, un-dumped and un-stinky>

Our 1995 Corsair/Farrier F-31 trimaran has a skinny main hull, and rewards us with fantastic performance (yes, even upwind...) when we keep it light.

It came with a standard marine head (NTC???), a tiny tank, heavy sewage hoses, valves and a direct-dump through-hull.

We used the head and hated it. It stank, it leaked, it had to be dumped soon after use and was thoroughly unpleasant in every way. The blue liquid we used to try and control the stink leaked out and stained our boat. Other people have other marine heads and other experiences. This was ours.

I sought an alternative. None of the commercial units could be made to fit without significant interior work, so I built a prototype unit out of some plywood, a bucket, a plastic seat and click-closing lid from a "Luggable Loo", some plastic tube and hose clamps, and a separator-seat from Composting Toilet, Urine Diverters and Composting Toilet Components for about sixty bucks, as I recall. The cramped 3-d design coupled to our human ergonomics (I am ~6 feet, First Mate is petite) was tricky, but doable. See pics that I hope are attached.

We have about a year's supply of coir on board that weighs a few kilos. The head itself weighs just a few kilos, but that will go down again when I get around to doing the foam-core panels to replace the plywood prototype. The old marine head was porcelain, very heavy (just the seat and lid weighed as much as our entire head now), and so were all those sewage-hoses, valves, and of, course all that toxic shiss that we were carrying around with us before the swap. I haven't quantified the weight-loss program, but it is significant.

Maintenance and operation consists of emptying the pee-bottles (we have several old gallon water-bottles with two caps each, one with a hole for the pee-tube, one to seal), sprinkling in the coir after pooping, and dumping the bucket when it fills up. And every once in a while I tilt the unit up and shake the bucket to make sure the turds get busted up properly and covered adequately with coir so it dries. I think we will invest in a stool-spurtle to ease that last job, and I'll do a proper lid-hinge on the foam-core final unit.

Being pro-mingent, I have no trouble keeping liquids gong forward and solids astern, but retro-mingent First Mate has had to adapt somewhat. Despite that, she would NEVER EVER go back to having a shiss-tank on board.

I read about needing ventilator-tubes, fans, about flies etc. but our experience to date (Ottawa River for weekends, ~two weeks in the North Channel, and now about two weeks into our Bahama cruise) has been that none of the above was necessary. If they become necessary, I will adapt the design and let y'all know.

The smell of the pee-bottles is enough to knock you out, but we only smell that during the change. The poop has virtually no odour. If I can smell it, I know I just need to shake the bucket and/or add some coir.

I'll see if I can attach some photos now.

Just the facts, Ma'am.
Cheers,
Ben

[smj]

The only hole below the waterline that we have is a depth sounder transducer. Peace of mind.

[BlackHeron]

Originally Posted by smj

The only hole below the waterline that we have is a depth sounder transducer. Peace of mind.

Do you have outboard engines?

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

There are many items and systems on a boat which, when used or installed incorrectly, can sink the boat.

I feel that sinks are just as dangerous or even more so than the wet head system. I've seen some pretty awful kludges between the bottom of sink bowls and the thru-hull, cobbled adapters and assorted connections which could all fail below the waterline. Add to that fact that many boats have hot (really hot) water going down those sinks at times, and the danger is real.

Think about that the next time you pour off boiling water after cooking noodles or similar down your sink what that is doing to your sink drain system below. How many people use exhaust hose rated for below waterline use on their galley sinks? How many are just using PVC hose? Ever see any PVC hose rated for 100C? It doesn't need to actually burst right then, just get soft enough to partially tear/cut at the hose clamp which might be a little too tightly fastened. Then it's just a matter of time before the stub rips & falls off the last half of an inch of the tailpiece going into the seacock.

I'm not trying to argue, but are you really disagreeing with my claim that by removing the wet head (with, according to your posted illustration, 2 seacocks, 2 siphon breaks and many meters of hoses and connections, a holding tank etc.) you reduce the risk of sinking?

Sure, all holes in the hull are potential risks. By removing them you reduce risks. I have 2 sinks on my boat and both have a straight run from the drain to the seacock. I inspect them regularly and close EVERY seacock when I leave the boat.

[smj]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

Do you have outboard engines?

Yes we do

[BlackHeron]

Originally Posted by Copacabana

From David Pascoe:

"For sailboats, the most common cause [of sinking] is improper head installation, sink drains, inadequate bilge pumps and battery systems that don't supply enough power to run the pumps."

How to Prevent Your Boat from Sinking: Boats and Yachts Maintenance and Troubleshooting :

My point was that a composting toilet removes that risk (head causing the boat to sink). In the same way, I have tried to remove all seacocks or holes in the hull that are not absolutely essential. I've got it down to 3 (and 2 cockpit drains). This may be a concern for some people, not for others.

Properly installing a wet head also removes the risk of an improperly installed wet head.

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

Properly installing a wet head also removes the risk of an improperly installed wet head.

Yes, because a seacock can't fail, a siphon break can't clog, fittings can't break, hoses can't crack...

Any hole in your boat is a potential problem.

Seriously, you are taking this too personally my friend.

[jbbacque]

On reading my version of "the facts" First Mate pointed out that she hated the old head so much that after I had started the process of ripping out the old head, SHE was the one who then tore out everything else - all the heavy-hose, valves, etc etc. It was a labour of both love and hatred.

Cheers again,
ben

[smj]

https://youtu.be/meIJl5rWUoY

[BlackHeron]

Anything can fail.

Focusing on the dangers of the wet head is illogical or at least way overblown. It's only one of many holes in a typical boat that can fail and let in water. As sailors we have learned long ago how to properly operate, inspect, and maintain a simple thru-hull. If not, then those people failing to do this are going to be exposed to many issues that might sink a boat.

Are we going to stop washing our hands with running water and removing the sinks too? Talk about turning our backs on the modern plumbing. Might as well tow a porta-potty behind the boat and remove the entire danger of inside privies.

Are we also going to remove inboard engines to eliminate cooling water thru-hulls and the prop shaft/saildrive?

Is this the 21st century or the 17th?

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

Anything can fail.

Focusing on the dangers of the wet head is illogical or at least way overblown. It's only one of many holes in a typical boat that can fail and let in water. As sailors we have learned long ago how to properly operate, inspect, and maintain a simple thru-hull. If not, then those people failing to do this are going to be exposed to many issues that might sink a boat.

Are we going to stop washing our hands with running water and removing the sinks too? Talk about turning our backs on the modern plumbing. Might as well tow a porta-potty behind the boat and remove the entire danger of inside privies.

Are we also going to remove inboard engines to eliminate cooling water thru-hulls and the prop shaft/saildrive?

Is this the 21st century or the 17th?

Are those the self-installing wooden plugs that jump into the hole when you're off the boat?

I think this will be my last post here. There is no rational dialogue....

My only claim was that by removing the wet head you remove ONE of the potential dangers. I'm sorry you interpreted that as my desire to return to the 17th century...

Go back and read my original post, which was just describing MY EXPERIENCE and MY REASONS for installing a composting head. It wasn't an attack on wet heads (to the contrary). It wasn't a personal attack that must be defended.

It's just bloody wonderful you have a wet head, maintain it and are happy with it. I'm happy for you. Some other people may be interested in other options and the reasons why some people switch to a composting head. I tried to outline the pros and cons of a composting head and MY EXPERIENCE with both wet and composting heads.