Composting toilets or wet sewage systems

[David B]

Originally Posted by smj

You have absolutely zero experience with composting heads and obviously no experience with changing the hoses on your current boat, though you did give a long winded post on how long it takes you. Talk about what you know.

So you say - well our boat is very nicely maintained thank you!

And by the way, show me where I claimed to have experience of composting heads - I learn from others comments here, and also from the many YouTube videos posted showing exactly the procedure involved with various brands - not by the companies who make them but by real people who are proponents of such things. I could actually claim to be knowledgeable in their operation, but I didn't, and won't.

Well I will leave you to be upset, I (and I am sure you have quite an audience here now ), remain amused at the pettyness shown here, but I look forward to the balanced and honest perspectives other in this forum are prepared to give.

Interesting place isn't it people - never boring

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by smj

Still here and a slow year. No pump out boats bashing our hull. The marina manager here loves composting heads[emoji16]

Seems like I remember two marine employees that were let go for hitting boats on balls while driving the pump out boat. Ask Charles about that. I still hope to get to the Keys this season but lots going on with me. My newest toy should be here tomorrow if UPS can be believed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi6AEWwvN48

[smj]

Originally Posted by David B

So you say - well our boat is very nicely maintained thank you!



And by the way, show me where I claimed to have experience of composting heads - I learn from others comments here, and also from the many YouTube videos posted showing exactly the procedure involved with various brands - not by the companies who make them but by real people who are proponents of such things. I could actually claim to be knowledgeable in their operation, but I didn't, and won't.



Well I will leave you to be upset, I (and I am sure you have quite an audience here now ), remain amused at the pettyness shown here, but I look forward to the balanced and honest perspectives other in this forum are prepared to give.



Interesting place isn't it people - never boring

Not upset at all. Just pointing out you should stick to what you know and if you don’t know then get some experience.
Good luck with the button!

[David B]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

A battery-powered porta-band is a slick piece of equipment. I did a 3-month short-call stint with an electrical shop a couple of years back where they used them for almost everything. Every electrician was issued one and nobody even used a hacksaw. I still prefer to use a hacksaw though.

For most marine hose that doesn't have a wire coil inside,I have found that a simple PVC pipe cutter does the job quicker and cleaner with less trouble -no rubber or vinyl dust getting everywhere, especially into the bilge to plug the pump. Keep the blade sharp (no nicks) by touching it up when it needs it and this is the slick tool to have aboard for these types of jobs.

Good tip - thanks.

You are right about the sawing dust. Those bilges can do without it. Generally what I do is either use a hacksaw, or if the hose is small enough, just a Stanley knife, then nip the wire with a pair of side-cutters.

The ideal, is if I have access to my workshop (or someone else's ). I can then cut the hose on the bandsaw, and give the ends a nice finish on the linishing machine.

Probably you do the same, but the other key thing for me, is to pull the wire out of the hose a little, nip off the end (especially if linished - it can have a nasty sharp tip on it), then it will spring back into the sidewall of the hose out of finger-harms way.

I like a nice installation - hoses pushed right up to the base of the tail, clamps nicely diametrically opposed, covers on the clamp ends etc - fussy bugger!

[David B]

Originally Posted by smj

Not upset at all. Just pointing out you should stick to what you know and if you don’t know then get some experience.
Good luck with the button!

[smj]

Originally Posted by David B

[emoji8]

[BlackHeron]

The covers on the clamp ends are a little over the top IMHO, but I can see the utility of it sometimes. Unless they have been cut down it's usually unnecessary. The nice ABA clamps have pretty smooth well-formed ends.

[David B]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

The covers on the clamp ends are a little over the top IMHO, but I can see the utility of it sometimes. Unless they have been cut down it's usually unnecessary. The nice ABA clamps have pretty smooth well-formed ends.

In the dark corners, lurk an uncovered clamp end, ready to ensnare ones hand.

My unfortunate experience anyway. The pain is, they don't stay on very well.

[Captain Randy]

Howdy All,

It took awhile to make it through 173 posts of this thread sitting at work mostly counting down the days until next year when we leave to full time cruise from So Cal to Mex and beyond. I fully understand that caution is needed here so as to not offend the wet or dry head folks let alone the poor fellow that was hung by his toes for taking 2 hours to change his hoses. I am simply here to note that I too am a convert to the composter band wagon.

I just ripped out the old and completed the conversion of our head from a typical wet head to a NH composter, hooked it up and added the coir, ready for our business. This of course after much thought, research and yea a number of YouTube vid's. So....we are all in and no going back and looking forward to how ever it turns out. Dilly Dilly I say!
CR

[David B]

Originally Posted by Captain Randy

Howdy All,

It took awhile to make it through 173 posts of this thread sitting at work mostly counting down the days until next year when we leave to full time cruise from So Cal to Mex and beyond. I fully understand that caution is needed here so as to not offend the wet or dry head folks let alone the poor fellow that was hung by his toes for taking 2 hours to change his hoses. I am simply here to note that I too am a convert to the composter band wagon.

I just ripped out the old and completed the conversion of our head from a typical wet head to a NH composter, hooked it up and added the coir, ready for our business. This of course after much thought, research and yea a number of YouTube vid's. So....we are all in and no going back and looking forward to how ever it turns out. Dilly Dilly I say!
CR

Nice contribution Randy, and yes, quite a thread isn't it (I suspect anchors, cat's vs monos, and teak decks can't come close ).

I particularly support your comment re "the poor fellow that was hung by his toes for taking 2 hours to change his hoses" (or those also experienced in such things - like me and others - who supported his claim as quite reasonable, and by no means illusionary, or misleading).

I suspect there will be many here interested to learn of your experience in a year or two, but for now I am interested to learn the reasons for your decision to go from a wet system. Seems there are quite a number out there removing their composting systems, as there are those ripping out their wet systems (more so - if this forum is anything to go by). Always good to hear others reasoning, and perspective - we can all learn from it.

Thanks,

David

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by David B

Nice contribution Randy, and yes, quite a thread isn't it (I suspect anchors, cat's vs monos, and teak decks can't come close ).

I particularly support your comment re "the poor fellow that was hung by his toes for taking 2 hours to change his hoses" (or those also experienced in such things - like me and others - who supported his claim as quite reasonable, and by no means illusionary, or misleading).

I suspect there will be many here interested to learn of your experience in a year or two, but for now I am interested to learn the reasons for your decision to go from a wet system. Seems there are quite a number out there removing their composting systems, as there are those ripping out their wet systems (more so - if this forum is anything to go by). Always good to hear others reasoning, and perspective - we can all learn from it.

Thanks,

David

Not to add fuel to the fire, but...

I installed my Nature's Head about 4 years ago. When I bought my boat it came with a Wilcox-Crittenden manual head with direct discharge (and a bladder holding tank, which the PO had installed to be compliant with US laws when the boat was cruising there). I took the head apart, cleaned everything, changed hoses, but never seemed to get the "smell" out of the boat. I wanted to install something simpler, more reliable and safer (I suspect wet heads sink more boats than any other cause). I began researching composting heads at this point. Living in Brazil, I realized I'd have to import one, as they don't exist here on the market. With the almost 100% import tax in Brazil, it meant an investment of about US$ 2,000 (not spare change by any measure). I began reading EVERYTHING I could from useres on the net, including blogs and forums. I was especially interested in reading about problems with these heads and people who had regretted the decision. I found all of 2 people, at the time, who had uninstalled their composting heads after trying them for a while (one of them was here on CF- Rebel Heart). What I did find was that virtually everyone who had installed one was happy with the decision and wouldn't go back to a wet head. This was enough to convince me to go ahead and buy one. So I did- and removed and glassed over the seacock, ripped everything out and installed my Nature's Head. It has been, without a doubt, the best upgrade on the boat so far. Why?
1) No smell (NONE at all. I arrive at the boat and open it up and there is no smell to greet me).
2) Safety. No seacocks, no chance of sinking from the head.
3) Simplicity. There is NOTHING to maintain, break or malfunction. Any idiot can operate and maintain it. I wanted something that I could rely on to work properly without any worries.
4) Compliance. It allows me to sail in no discharge zones.
5) Freedom. I don't have to look for a pumpout station. I can go months without emptying the solids bin, and when I do I have many options, like bagging it, dumping it offshore, taking it into the jungle and dumping it under a tree (which is what I normally do).
6) Extra space. It's amazing how much space you recover when you rip out the old system

I am very satisfied with the decision and can highly recommend a composting head. However, there are some downsides that must be understood before changing over to one.

1) Urine. The urine jug has to be emptied (mine is emptied every night). In a marina this could mean a daily walk to the loo to dump the urine. Outside marinas, it's easier to just dump it over the side (providing it is allowed). Urine is probably the biggest challenge with a composting head and something to think about before installing one (are you in a marina? Out cruising and anchoring every night?)
2) Solids. After a period, you'll have to deal with the composting bin. Most of the negative comments from non-users seem to gravitate to this chore- "I don't want to have to deal with my poop", "it sounds disgusting" etc. Well, it's not a big deal. It looks and smells like rich potting soil. It's a 5 minute job to pull the bin, put a garbage bag over the top and turn it over. The bag can be disposed of in a number of ways later, including trash, dumping on your flower bed or off shore.

Something that hasn't been mentioned here is how ideal a composting toilet is for those who use their boats on weekends or a few times a month. Without daily deposits, the composting bin has time to really dry out, which means you can go many months without dumping it.

The other negative comment that comes up from non-users is the issue of buying and storing the media (coconut coir). Also not a big deal. You can buy it in any garden store or even Walmart. It's no more a chore than buying rice or wine. Also, you can fit a year's supply in a small box. It's not like you have to run out every week to buy the stuff.

As far as the learning curve to use it- again, not a big deal. You have to remember to push a lever to open the shoot, but it's no more complicated than learning a manual head with a valve and pump handle. So far, all my guests on board have had no trouble using it.

Other drawbacks... It is ideal for one or two live aboards. It can handle the volume produced by 2 people just fine, but a larger crew can lead to a wetter bin and a having to dump the bin in short time. There is also the possibility of a fly infestation when it's being overtaxed by a larger crew. The screen on the fan should keep them out, but it can happen. I had one fly infestation on a month-long cruise with 4 on board. I fixed the problem by dumping the bin and spraying a bit of bug spray after. Not a problem.

What is the worst that can happen with a composter? Well, the only real nightmare is liquids in the solids bin, which can become a soggy mess. You know when the bin is too moist when the crank handle gets harder to turn. It doesn't happen from one minute to the next, so you can really mitigate this problem by dumping the bin before it becomes a problem. At any rate, if the worst happens, all you have to do is dump the bin, refill it with new coir and you're good to go again. Now compare this to the kinds of disasters that you can have with a wet system (holding tank leaking its contents into the bilge, blocked hoses, blocked vents, clogged head, seacock inoperable etc.).

Does it need a fan? Probably not. A number of people have installed them without fans (and the C Head doesn't come with one). But since it comes with the kit, why not install it? It helps to dry the contents of the bin.

Well, this turned into a rather long post, but I really just wanted to comment on the quote above (which I bolded). I don't think there are a lot of people removing their composting toilets. If you look around the web you'll see very, very few cases. Before buying a composter, I'd try to find the few cases of unhappy users to find out the reasons. Rebel Heart was a bug infestation with a baby on board. Another I recall was a case of the size of the head, which meant they had to remove the door to the head to use it. They didn't like the idea of pooping in plain view (and who would?) of their partner. I'm sure there are some unhappy users out there, but beware of the comments like "a buddy hated his and ripped it out in the first week" or "a guy at my marina..." etc. Look for documented cases. What you'll find on the web is that the overwhelming majority of people with composting heads are very satisfied and would not go back to a wet head. Perhaps it takes a special kind of person to make the initial leap (they know they will have to deal with the contents of the bin beforehand, for example), but if you know what's involved with the operation of a composting head and can live with it, then I'm pretty sure you're going to be another satisfied user.

For those thinking of installing one, I have some advice. Focus on the comments of those who actually have one on their boat. Try to meet someone with one on their boat and go and see it up close and get a feel for how it works and the operation (dumping contents etc.). It's very simple. While you're there, inhale deeply. Inhale again, through the nose. The lack of smell is one of the reasons you want one in the first place!

Is one system better than the other? No. A wet head can be great. A composter can be great. I think a composter is easier to live with, will give you fewer problems and the chances of bad smells are almost zero. Yes, I know wet heads can be zero-odor. Personally, I haven't come across one yet. In fact, the odor issue is probably the main reason why people start looking at composting heads in the first place.

Finally, I can't really understand why people get so riled up about what other people use on their boats. Buy whatever head you want. What I don't like is misinformation (about either choice).

Cheers!

[bletso]

Copacabana,

Nice clear writeup. Kind of mirrors my experience as well. Thanks

[David B]

Originally Posted by Copacabana

Not to add fuel to the fire, but...

I installed my Nature's Head about 4 years ago.

Finally, I can't really understand why people get so riled up about what other people use on their boats. Buy whatever head you want. What I don't like is misinformation (about either choice).

Cheers!

How balanced is that then! Excellent!
None of the reasons you give for changing from a wet head are applicable in our case, and none of the reasons you give for being happy with your composting head appeal to me BUT, I TOTALLY accept that they are applicable to you, and it works for you.

Again - an excellent, balanced, non-emotional (and dare I say it - non-biased) response. Also, I think a valuable contribution to the discussion for those who are considering upgrading their on-board sewage system. Dare I summarise?

A modern, quality, flushing toilet system can be run odour-free, with no blockages, and with no hassle at all - nothing to buy other than de-scaler at the end of each season.

For those concerned re thru-hulls, or in a situation where they are in a no-discharge zone and pump-out stations are rare, then a composting head may well be the answer.

In my view - and my experience, maintained through-hulls are not an issue - there are usually plenty in a modern boat anyway.
Decent, quality holding tanks (such as well-supported HDPE etc - the thought of a bladder holding sewage terrifies me) are also very safe.

Then there is the personal side - some will never contemplate dealing with bottles of urine, and bags of composted human waste. Others seem to really want to be as green as possible and see creating compost as one thing they can do.

Fair enough - we all have our own ideas, preferences, and even phobias.

Again Cap'n Copacabana - thank you for an in-biased, warts and all account of your experience, and why your choice works for you - breath of fresh air (and yes, you may argue there is a pun there - but I would argue, we also have fresh air ).

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by David B

How balanced is that then! Excellent!
None of the reasons you give for changing from a wet head are applicable in our case, and none of the reasons you give for being happy with your composting head appeal to me BUT, I TOTALLY accept that they are applicable to you, and it works for you.

Again - an excellent, balanced, non-emotional (and dare I say it - non-biased) response. Also, I think a valuable contribution to the discussion for those who are considering upgrading their on-board sewage system. Dare I summarise?

A modern, quality, flushing toilet system can be run odour-free, with no blockages, and with no hassle at all - nothing to buy other than de-scaler at the end of each season.

For those concerned re thru-hulls, or in a situation where they are in a no-discharge zone and pump-out stations are rare, then a composting head may well be the answer.

In my view - and my experience, maintained through-hulls are not an issue - there are usually plenty in a modern boat anyway.
Decent, quality holding tanks (such as well-supported HDPE etc - the thought of a bladder holding sewage terrifies me) are also very safe.

Then there is the personal side - some will never contemplate dealing with bottles of urine, and bags of composted human waste. Others seem to really want to be as green as possible and see creating compost as one thing they can do.

Fair enough - we all have our own ideas, preferences, and even phobias.

Again Cap'n Copacabana - thank you for an in-biased, warts and all account of your experience, and why your choice works for you - breath of fresh air (and yes, you may argue there is a pun there - but I would argue, we also have fresh air ).

Yes, I was speaking from personal experience -with my wet heads on 2 boats and now a composter. I understand that a properly installed wet head can be trouble free, though, with all the hoses, tank, valves etc. a bit more complicated. I'm sure your head is odor-free (why would anyone doubt you?), but I just haven't come across one yet. I live in Brazil and perhaps the installations here are not up to par (I suspect it is the case).

Both options work. One just has to know what one is getting into before going ahead with the purchase and installation. For those considering a composter, ask questions here. There are a number of users on CF who can set you straight on the pros and cons.

Now, let's all have a group hug and go back to our respective heads for a moment of comtemplation and perhaps a crossword puzzle...

[BlackHeron]

Originally Posted by Copacabana

Not to add fuel to the fire, but...

I wanted to install something simpler, more reliable and safer (I suspect wet heads sink more boats than any other cause).

/snip/

Buy whatever head you want. What I don't like is misinformation (about either choice).

Cheers!

Speaking of misinformation. Wet heads sink more boats than any other cause? Really? Does anyone have any hard data on this?

That ONE extra seacock is such a huge danger? -more so than the sink drain in the head, or the sink drain in the galley? Do people never turn their seacocks off when they leave the boat? Is one more seacock of the many others to shut off that big of a deal? Am I the only one who has a seawater faucet in the galley, and is using the same thru-hull to feed it and the head so eliminating a wet head would save ZERO thru-hulls? How is a turned-off seacock such a safety concern? Do people not understand how a siphon break works or how to install one?

I am always surprised at how few boats that I am on which actually have the wet heads plumbed properly. Many lack a siphon break between the pump and the bowl so it is impossible for a siphon to overfill the bowl and flood the boat if the head is left switched to "wet pump."

The popular YouTube sailing channel Wicked Salty just lost a boat which sank at its mooring this past fall, but it wasn't a head siphon as many people suspected, They said in their latest video that the head sink drain hose fell off at the sink, and the hose end dropped below the water line.

So are people going to also remove their sink in the head when they remove their wet heads? Are they just going to give up on washing hands and simply walk away from any of the benefits of modern plumbing on their boats?