Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-02-2010, 05:07   #151
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504
Sewage Holding Tank Systems for Recreational Boats
Here's a little more, a pamphlet from Ca that interperates the rule as type 3, clearly designed for disposing ashore, does not require certification.
I also find it curious that after going on about the addition of nutrients to bodies of water and the EPA that there are provissions for type 1 and 2 at all, even requiring boats over 65 ft to have them. Even if ground up so we can't identify the contents and treated for coliform, the nutrients are being added and will cause the very blooms and imbalance that they base the laws on. However, as has been said before, laws and their enforcement don't nescessarily follow logic.
Anyway, as a type 3 it appears that they don't need certification which means by def. that they must be emptied ashore (legally) and that the 'holdong tanks' must be at ambient presure. So to follow the law (for those that want to be 'good citizens') no tight fitting lids on your buckets and no screwtop on your pee bottle!
For those that want to be rational and logical, don't get caught. Which would be pretty hard to do anyway.
__________________

__________________
ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2010, 05:24   #152
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504
But then again, this is direct from uscg site:

Vessel Operators: No person may operate any Vessel having an installed toilet facility unless it is equipped with an installed and operable MSD of a type approved by the U.S. Coast Guard to meet the requirements of 33 CFR Part 159.

Approved MSDs: There are three different types of MSDs that can be certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to meet the requirements in 33 CFR Part 159, each having its own design, certification, and discharge criteria. For more information see 33 CFR 159.53.
  • Type I is a flow through discharge device that produces effluent having a fecal coliform bacteria count not greater than 1,000 per 100 milliliters and no visible floating solids. This type of device is typically a physical/chemical based system that relies on maceration and chlorination. Type I MSDs are issued a Certificate of Approval.
  • Type II is a flow through discharge device that produces effluent having a fecal coliform bacteria count not greater than 200 per 100 milliliters and suspended solids not greater than 150 milligrams per liter. This type of device is typically a biological or aerobic digestion based system.
  • Type III is a device that prevents the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage. This type of device is typically a holding tank and may include other types of technology including incineration, recirculation, and composting.
__________________

__________________
ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2010, 05:32   #153
Moderator... short for Cat Wrangler
 
sarafina's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Cal 28 Flush Deck
Posts: 5,559
Images: 56
I have no idea. No approval process to go through, as in permitting and sign offs for land based systems, when you install. Only an issue if you get boarded by the guardies and they check you system and ask how you handle the output from a system that may or may not be familiar to them. I bet it would depend on the day and person you wind up dealing with and how petty a petty officer (or bureaucrat) they were...

Clearly NH bills themselves as a type III. All waste is contained and can be transported to an appropriate facility. Nothing is DESIGNED to go overboard.

Here we are just considering the practical implementation of that disposal.

Nature's Head composting toilet meets all "No Discharge" regulations and is a U.S Coast Guard Approved type III marine head. There is no certification of type III units. Holding tanks (Type III) do not require a certification label if they simply store sewage at ambient temperatures and pressures. Which the NH does.

Tricky business with much fine print. All of which would mean very little if the boarding officer had hemorrhoids acting up that day... In that case you might be outta luck no matter what the regs said about your system... I have a great deal of faith in the perversity of bureaucrats.
__________________
Sara

ain't what ya do, it's the way that ya do it...
sarafina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2010, 05:44   #154
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504
I am just reading cfr 33 159 and they clearly state that type 3 systems must have all sorts of labeling requirements including that they are approved with a certification. By the regs, it seems no homebuilt unless using certified parts and I would love to hear if the commercial units even qualify.
They state that they do in their adverising but then refer you to a document that says they must be certified, not one that shows that they are...
Does anyone who has one of these things in front of them see a uscg certification number on the unit. The pee bottle, being a holding tank should be easy to look at and see. There also has to be a whole bunch of other stuff on that lable too so it should be easy to find...
__________________
ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2010, 05:46   #155
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504
Holy cow, Sara!
You're up early. I am ussually up around 4:30 or 5 but my goodness!
__________________
ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2010, 05:48   #156
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa Bay
Boat: Nor Sea 27'
Posts: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarafina View Post
There is; google eco privy kit. link is up above a couple of times as well.

On the urine storage. Someone mentioned adding bleach to kill smell and it raised an issue for me. Urine makes ammonia, right? and bleach added to ammonia makes chlorine gas (mustard gas for all the old ww II vets)

Potential problem here?
That was me. The bleach really stopped any odor from developing. Just the bleach smell. I didn't use enough to make it overpowering so I don't think I was creating a gas chamber.
However, after reading Jenkins book and some other things, I have decided that chlorine and composting don't mix. I've read that chlorine is a chemical not found in nature and is thought to be pretty dangerous for people.
If my privy kit ever shows up and I can finally build my toilet, the urine storage won't be right under my nose, so to speak, and the odor shouldn't be as much of an issue as with using a jug.
I ordered my kit almost a month ago. First they confused my order with someone in TX, then they apparently just forgot to ship it for a couple of weeks. Finally a couple of days ago I got an email and a tracking number so I know it's on the way.
__________________
WIKIJAR
knothead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2010, 05:55   #157
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504

159.55 Identification.

(a) Each production device must be
legibly marked in accordance with
paragraph (b) of this section with the
following information:
(1) The name of the manufacturer.
(2) The name and model number of
the device.
(3) The month and year of completion
of manufacture.
(4) Serial number.
(5) Whether the device is certified for
use on an inspected or an uninspected
vessel.
(6) Whether the device is Type I, II,
or III.
(b) The information required by paragraph
(a) of this section must appear
on a nameplate attached to the device
or in lettering on the device. The
nameplate or lettering stamped on the
device must be capable of withstanding
without loss of legibility the combined
effects of normal wear and tear and exposure
to water, salt spray, direct sunlight,
heat, cold, and any substance
listed in
159.117(b) and (c). The nameplate
and lettering must be designed to
resist efforts to remove them from the
device or efforts to alter the information
stamped on the nameplate or the

device without leaving some obvious

blah blah blah, but clearly nees to be certified and marked...
__________________
ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2010, 06:37   #158
Moderator... short for Cat Wrangler
 
sarafina's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Cal 28 Flush Deck
Posts: 5,559
Images: 56
The fine print is pretty fine... but I think that the deal is that the systems that process the waste, rather than holding it, or hold it in some system that is active, not passive (incineration and recirculating or vacuum), must be certified. It clearly states that passive type IIIs do not have a certification. Interestin g how they make is so convoluted it's prolly possible to jerk anyone's chain depending on interpretation...

Off the USCG site.

Approved MSDs:
There are three different types of MSDs that can be certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to meet the requirements in 33 CFR Part 159, each having its own design, certification, and discharge criteria. For more information see 33 CFR 159.53.
  • Type I is a flow through discharge device that produces effluent having a fecal coliform bacteria count not greater than 1,000 per 100 milliliters and no visible floating solids. This type of device is typically a physical/chemical based system that relies on maceration and chlorination. Type I MSDs are issued a Certificate of Approval.
  • Type II is a flow through discharge device that produces effluent having a fecal coliform bacteria count not greater than 200 per 100 milliliters and suspended solids not greater than 150 milligrams per liter. This type of device is typically a biological or aerobic digestion based system.
  • Type III is a device that prevents the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage. This type of device is typically a holding tank and may include other types of technology including incineration, recirculation, and composting.

Type III devices. Ambient air pressure & temperature. A Type III device that stores sewage and flushwater at ambient air pressure and temperature is not subject to formal U.S. Coast Guard certification if it meets the requirements in 33 CFR 159.53(c). Such devices will have no U.S. Coast Guard Certificate of Approval, no U.S. Coast Guard letter, and no device label.
Adequacy. Type III MSDs should be of adequate size and construction to retain all wastewater generated while the vessel is operating in U.S. waters. For example, the use of piping to hold sewage or the securing of a head's direct overboard discharge valve are not adequate Type III devices.


33 CFR 159.53.

CHAPTER I - COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

SUBCHAPTER O - POLLUTION

PART 159 - MARINE SANITATION DEVICES

subpart c - DESIGN, CONSTRUCTION, AND TESTING

159.53 - General requirements.

A device must: (a) Under the test conditions described in 159.123 and 159.125, produce an effluent having a fecal coliform bacteria count not greater than 1,000 per 100 milliliters and no visible floating solids (Type I), (b) Under the test conditions described in 159.126 and 159.126a, produce an effluent having a fecal coliform bacteria count not greater than 200 per 100 milliliters and suspended solids not greater than 150 milligrams per liter (Type II), or (c) Be designed to prevent the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage (Type III).


*this posting brought to you by the national insomniacs association...
__________________
Sara

ain't what ya do, it's the way that ya do it...
sarafina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2010, 06:50   #159
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504
Hmmm. I'll go with that.
I wonder why they go with all the other regs stating type 3 must be labled and certified? (see paragrph 6, cfr 159.55 above)
__________________
ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2010, 07:08   #160
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504
* get your mind out of the potty and think peaceful sailing thoughts to fall asleep by!
__________________
ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2010, 09:41   #161
Registered User
 
Doodles's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Virginia, USA & Krabi, Thailand
Boat: Wauquiez Pretorien 35; Nordica 16
Posts: 2,810
Images: 1
Reading some of these posts are great for insomnia.

Are you guys lawyers or accountants (I can say that without being politically incorrect since I'm one)?
__________________
Doodles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2010, 09:54   #162
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wells, Vt
Boat: 42ft Colvin Gazelle - TLA HLA
Posts: 504
Just trying to figure out their work...

I think it is clear from going over the cfr's that for "uninspected" vessels type three heads don't need certification but must comply with the ambient temp and pressure requirements. (no airtight lids on the buckets or pee bottles. ???)
Help us out here Doodles if you understand the lingo! Especially if you are up late and have nothing better to do.
__________________
ConradG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2010, 10:16   #163
Registered User
 
Doodles's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Virginia, USA & Krabi, Thailand
Boat: Wauquiez Pretorien 35; Nordica 16
Posts: 2,810
Images: 1
I'm up late but have better things to do, if you know what I mean.

This has gotten way over my little head. I'm going to just continue to dump the pee jug overboard like I have been and take my chances.
__________________
Doodles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2010, 11:59   #164
Registered User
 
flysci's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Panama, en route to Mexico
Boat: CS36T, 36'
Posts: 586
on the deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
We have a natural composting toilet. Poop on the foredeck.
MARKJ,

I'm surprised no one called you on this. I believe you're supposed to poop on the POOP deck. LOL!

Margo
__________________
M. Roark
s/v Baja Beagle

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana." -Groucho Marx
flysci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2010, 09:53   #165
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa Bay
Boat: Nor Sea 27'
Posts: 202
An interesting article about using urine to create hydrogen. Turns out it's much cheaper and more effective than using water.

Toilets That Separate Pee For Urea-Hydrogen Fuel Harvesting Already on Market : CleanTechnica __________________
__________________

__________________
WIKIJAR
knothead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dry Composting Head - Installed and in Use Simes Liveaboard's Forum 9 07-08-2009 16:19
Composting Toilets Maren Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 38 16-05-2009 11:21
Composting Toilets? markpj23 Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 34 23-09-2008 09:17
Dry Composting Marine Toilet? Simes Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 0 21-09-2008 09:26



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:58.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.