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15-12-2019, 03:33
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#31
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,626
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
When I posted the shower sump, was thinking of installing a second sump just for head vs using existing. My shower arrangement has no sump - it is shucked out by a whale diaphragm pump and overboard so I hadn't even thought about using an existing sump.
I confess, I'm one of the American ludites who don't have a clue on how to use a bidet. A couple YouTube videos later, I am convinced there is now way anyone shy of a Cirque du Soleil performer to keep liquids separate from the poop chamber.
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Cruising our 36-foot trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
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15-12-2019, 04:16
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 11,832
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
The bidet is an interesting subject. I used to be under the impression it was less sanitary to use your left hand to clean. Then one day I was hiking with my girlfriend and had a bit of an emergency. Ha ha. So I used a water bottle and the left hand method for the first time and WOW! It was fast and super clean. Like a taking a thorough shower.
When you think about it, if you stepped in something or got it all over your hands, would you just rub it off with a dry napkin or wash it off? At least a baby wipe, right?
Makes a lot more sense to me to have water involved.
Can't understand where America went wrong on this one. Lol
So for my next custom dry toilet, I'm supporting my girlfriend's wash with water and the left hand culture from her Desi roots and making the urine diverter double as a catch basin for the wash. Just have to make it larger than the typical urine diverter.
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15-12-2019, 05:28
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#33
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,626
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
Not saying a bidet isn't practical. Makes a lot of sense to me. I'm just saying that if you buy into keeping solids side as dry as possible, a bidet is incompatible with a commercially available compost head. Although my wife might occasionally differ, degree of aim-accuracy with a standard toilet is akin to hitting broadside of a barn. Add-in compost head, then add-in bidet contraption and you're approaching American Sniper accuracy.
__________________
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Cruising our 36-foot trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
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15-12-2019, 06:06
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 11,832
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles
Not saying a bidet isn't practical. Makes a lot of sense to me. I'm just saying that if you buy into keeping solids side as dry as possible, a bidet is incompatible with a commercially available compost head. Although my wife might occasionally differ, degree of aim-accuracy with a standard toilet is akin to hitting broadside of a barn. Add-in compost head, then add-in bidet contraption and you're approaching American Sniper accuracy.
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Ha ha ha. Very true about the sniper thing.
I was always taught part of sailing is sitting down to pee to avoid that aiming while bouncing around issue.
I definitely have to do a custom job. The commercially available ones wouldn't work. I agree.
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15-12-2019, 06:12
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Southern Maine
Boat: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Posts: 3,091
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7
...So, you have washed you bum, then what? how do you dry it on a small boat?
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That's always been my question about bidets. Seems like an extra step.
Anyway, this is actually the first real discussion I've read about the mechanics of so-called composting (desiccating) toilets. Everyone who spent time and money installing one raves about them, but they're always cagey about the working details. I always recall the remark (I think it was by Peggy) that it's just a glorified litter box and pee bottle.
It seems to me, mechanically, that the better solution is to simply leave the old-fashioned holding tank system in place and buy a "travel urinal" to collect the liquids and dispose of the same way as you would with a desiccating toilet. You'd only have about one flush per person per day, so your holding tank would fill much more slowly. You'd probably have to pump out about as often as you'd need to change the litter box or whatever they call it.
No expensive retro-fit, no question about resale value of the boat, shorter indoctrination period for guests, and less "ick" factor for regular crew.
That said, I know this is a religion for some people. I'm not disparaging your choices. Just offering a different perspective that works for me.
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15-12-2019, 07:15
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,626
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom
Anyway, this is actually the first real discussion I've read about the mechanics of so-called composting (desiccating) toilets. Everyone who spent time and money installing one raves about them, but they're always cagey about the working details. I always recall the remark (I think it was by Peggy) that it's just a glorified litter box and pee bottle.
It seems to me, mechanically, that the better solution is to simply leave the old-fashioned holding tank system in place and buy a "travel urinal" to collect the liquids and dispose of the same way as you would with a desiccating toilet. You'd only have about one flush per person per day, so your holding tank would fill much more slowly. You'd probably have to pump out about as often as you'd need to change the litter box or whatever they call it.
No expensive retro-fit, no question about resale value of the boat, shorter indoctrination period for guests, and less "ick" factor for regular crew..
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I'm in the middle of an extensive refit of my 1970 36-foot displacement trawler which I've owned for over 20-years (frankly, more closely resembles a sailboat than a typical trawler.....as it should). Head compartment is actually being re-located, so a blank-slate. I spent some some quality time thinking through this, and Peggy Hall was kind enough to walk me through her best thinking (at the risk of putting words in her mouth, my take was she politely expressed a modestly thumbs-down opinion on CHs). .
I also pinged this forum asking for feedback on their experience.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...in-224093.html
I have decided on going with a Nature's Head composting/desiccating head, possibly with a dormant holding tank built-in just-in-case for the following reasons:
1. Will be my wife and I almost exclusively. Just two persons. Maybe folks for dinner or drinks. If you have more than a couple on a constant basis, definitely not for you.
2. Simple. When I looked at the stuff I didn't need to install by going with a CH, it really became attractive - not just the holding tank, but the hoses, thru-hull, pump-out deck fitting, macerator pump, LectraSan treatment center (optional, of course, but I had one), Y-Valve, etc. It's a lot of stuff, a lot of maintenance, a lot of space, and frankly, a lot of money.
3. Ick-factor. Gotcha on that one. First, if you read the above CF thread, the ick-factor isn't nearly as bad as you think. Universally, people say it's easily managed - turns out the urine is more of a hassle than the poo because it must be dealt with much more frequently. As a guy who's first jobs were on a ranch were I mucked stalls, castrated sheep, and pulled birthing calves, emptying a desiccated bucket doesn't sound too bad. But that's me. If you're the type that jumps for the sani-wipes before you'll touch a supermarket grocery cart, definitely not for you.
4. Maintenance. Maintenance on CH is predictable. Yes, it's more or less weekly to empty to pee-bucket, and every few weeks to empty the poo bucket. But it's predictable and you know exactly what you're getting into.
5. Good bye pump-outs (and broken or inaccessible pump-outs). And good-bye "when was the last time we pumped-out?" as you depart your slip bound for a 3-day weekend.
6. Resale Value. Fully understand, which is why I might install a just-in-case holding tank. But seriously, this is my last boat. Not my problem.
For some reason, I've done a ton of work on head systems --- and cleared way too many clogs. Last one was just days before I departed San Francisco to Ensenada last year (also had to replace a macerator pump at same time ---- twice, first was defective which was another half-day while I figured out it wasn't an install mistake). Part of the clog-issue was self induced as I had jury-rigged the outlet from holding tank to a 1" thru-hull instead of a 1-1/2" thru-hull, but a wad of something got stuffed and stuck at the discharge thru-hull. I finally cleared it by connecting a garden hose to the hose connected to the thru-hull and turned it on. After about 5-minutes there was an audible "pop" and it was cleared. But point is, by the time I figured out where the clog was, I had checked everything else. You can imagine what my bilges looked like after a half-day of this (plus the half-day of futzing with the macerator). You wanna talk "Ick Factor?"
I understand the resistance to CH. But I do not understand the acceptance of the traditional marine head system as a good solution. It's a PITA with many, many demerits. And it's own Ick Factor.
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15-12-2019, 09:28
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#37
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,144
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom
Anyway, this is actually the first real discussion I've read about the mechanics of so-called composting (desiccating) toilets. Everyone who spent time and money installing one raves about them, but they're always cagey about the working details.
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Can you explain, or give details, about how we are "cagey" Tom? I'm often on these threads, and I don't know what you're referring to, but I'd be glad to be as clear as you would like in regards to any questions.
For some reason, composting heads seem to bring out a lot of uninformed opinion that passes for expertise. I'm not sure why this topic seems to get some people so worked up.
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15-12-2019, 10:48
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#38
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
Often from too-harsh toilet training as infants.
Even if done gently, it is one of the first major explicit teachings from the caregiver, and usually a major milestone, right of passage from animal to more "fully human"
fraught with intense emotions and pride from the whole family unit.
Also, these procedures are one of the very few things **everyone** in our cultural "in-group" does in exactly the same way.
So when someone says "this other way is better", implication is "y'all been doing it wrong" psychologically is processed as an attack on "our tribe", and that triggers very deep unconscious reactions.
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15-12-2019, 11:14
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#39
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Southern Maine
Boat: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Posts: 3,091
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly
Can you explain, or give details, about how we are "cagey" Tom? I'm often on these threads, and I don't know what you're referring to, but I'd be glad to be as clear as you would like in regards to any questions.
For some reason, composting heads seem to bring out a lot of uninformed opinion that passes for expertise. I'm not sure why this topic seems to get some people so worked up.
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It was years before I even knew these things had separate repositories for urine and solid waste. Usually, nobody talks about this stuff. It's refreshing to finally be at the point where it's possible to learn exactly how various brands of these systems actually work. That probably says something about the way the market has matured.
The whole reason I'm following this thread is because I am woefully uninformed. I've now learned that there are different shapes and designs to direct the two different waste streams. I've learned more about pee bottles than the few passing references I'd read before; types, sizes, how often they're emptied, where they're emptied, etc.
It's all very interesting. I don't see myself ripping out my traditional toilets anytime soon, but it's good to know more about the options for future reference, and because I'm sure I'll run into one at some point out on the water.
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15-12-2019, 11:18
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#40
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
If you search for threads across multiple forums, you'll find in-depth discussions of the technical details occur many times per year, comparing the three leading brands, dozens of DIY build threads everything you'd want to know there for the learning.
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15-12-2019, 12:16
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,144
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
If you search for threads across multiple forums, you'll find in-depth discussions of the technical details occur many times per year, comparing the three leading brands, dozens of DIY build threads everything you'd want to know there for the learning.
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What John says...
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16-12-2019, 07:25
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Melbourne, Florida
Boat: Southern Cross 39 - sv Kristali
Posts: 55
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
I carry two liquid tanks. One is fitted with a pump pickup tube located inside and at the bottom of the tank and routed to a small pump exiting via the head sink thru hull mounted at the waterline. I use this to discharge liquid waste when it is legal to do so. When it is not I exchange this tank with the non modified one and dump the liquids where appropriate (I.e toilet).
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16-12-2019, 07:36
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Finger Lakes, New York
Boat: Rhodes 22
Posts: 19
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
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16-12-2019, 08:44
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 141
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
The hardest part of living with a Natures Head (6 years) is training male guests to sit down to drain their beer tank.
We had a mostly failed septic system , that could handle a few gallons of wet a day , but not a cottage. Worked great!
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16-12-2019, 09:03
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,144
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Re: Composting Toilet Liquids Diversion
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringHollow
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Of course urine is not 100% sterile -- nothing is. But in healthy humans urine measures very low on bacteria count. It is, for example, way more sterile than nearly any other part of the human body: mouth, gut, groin, nasal areas, eyes, ears, skin, even the brain.
So, if you're honestly worried about the bacterial load from urine, then you better make sure no one ever goes swimming. The human skin is literally swimming with bacteria
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