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Old 26-08-2014, 11:03   #16
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Re: Chlorine in Water-Cooled Refrigeration Flow

Might want to give a look at this.

Spectra Watermakers - Marine - Bio-Guard Water Treatment System
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Old 26-08-2014, 11:16   #17
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Re: Chlorine in Water-Cooled Refrigeration Flow

I don't think a closed system will work, and if it requires imagination to come up with it, I speculate that manufacturers would either have specified and built it, or think it's unworkable.

The Spectra thing looks interesting, but we don't have anywhere near the required water flow for even the smallest. I agree it might do the trick if we had the flow. Of course, if we had THAT much flow, we probably wouldn't need air cooling.

So, we're left with sucking in whatever water we're in. I agree that running fresh water through a freshly scrubbed - or new - system would be better than fecund salt water, but keel-cooler or equivalents would be the only other solution I can imagine.

Note that if you happened to have followed my prior FB disaster/replacement thread, if there were a way to guarantee that the problem (now seen as systemic, rather than an anomaly, based on the number of similar reports) would not recur, and I could replace the evaporator, the ultimate villain in the piece, I'd have gone back with FB, which was ultimately simple. They even had an add-on air system for use while on the hard, or if environmental conditions demanded its addition.

That (previous FB system) worked very well, until it didn't at all...

L8R

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Old 26-08-2014, 11:32   #18
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Re: Chlorine in Water-Cooled Refrigeration Flow

skip-
I have heard people say they converted to a closed loop system by laying copper pipe into their potable water tanks. The thermal mass of the water in the tank, against the hull, was enough to keep their cooling systems happy without making the drinking water warm. So they say. Copper pipe isn't cheap, even thinwall pipe, but that's something fairly simple to try.
The other notion that comes to mind is to try a UV-C sterilizing lamp on your water intake, downstream of the filter. They pretty much kill everything that flows through them. The downside is that they use electricity (no problem if you are dockside with power) and they aren't cheap, probably $200-300 for a decent sized one. But there are also no chemicals released into your system this way.
Chlorine pretty much attacks everything, plastic, rubber, metal, cloth, you name it. I'd be afraid to know what could happen to your entire cooling system after six months of that. Shock treatment, yes. prolonged use? I'd be afraid.

If you can't locate suitable filter media, you should be able to buy almost any grade of fine stainless steel screen mesh from Small Parts Co., which oddly enough was bought by Amazon not too long ago. All sorts of materials and "maker" supplies, available in small quantity via the Amazon web site.
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Old 26-08-2014, 11:39   #19
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Re: Chlorine in Water-Cooled Refrigeration Flow

Skip,

One minor correction, HTH is not necessarily bromine. HTH is a trade name for Arch Chemicals and the HTH brand includes a variety of water treating products including Calcium Hypochlorite (a chlorine compound),the bromine compound 2,4-IMIDAZOLIDINEDIONE, 1-BROMO-3-CHLORO-5,5-DIMEMETHYL and others.


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Old 26-08-2014, 12:07   #20
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Re: Chlorine in Water-Cooled Refrigeration Flow

A closed system will work, of that I'm certain, you see them all over the place, your boats Diesel cooling system is an example.
It can be as simple as an automobile transmission cooler dropped overboard while your at dock with a $12 pump to circulate the coolant.
I doubt manufactures use it because it's more complex, expensive, has more moving parts and maybe uses more electrical power. If designed and installed correctly an air system simply doesn't need all that.
But air seems to have failed you, yet liquid cooling works.
Your faced with one of two solutions as I see it, either make the air system work, or make the liquid system work.
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Old 26-08-2014, 14:42   #21
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Re: Chlorine in Water-Cooled Refrigeration Flow

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
skip-
I have heard people say they converted to a closed loop system by laying copper pipe into their potable water tanks. The thermal mass of the water in the tank, against the hull, was enough to keep their cooling systems happy without making the drinking water warm. So they say. Copper pipe isn't cheap, even thinwall pipe, but that's something fairly simple to try.
Our water is already 90 due to being surrounded by air and water of that temperature.

Perhaps it could be our water heater


Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
The other notion that comes to mind is to try a UV-C sterilizing lamp on your water intake, downstream of the filter. They pretty much kill everything that flows through them. The downside is that they use electricity (no problem if you are dockside with power) and they aren't cheap, probably $200-300 for a decent sized one. But there are also no chemicals released into your system this way.

The UV filter is a nice idea, but I'm already fighting a voracious amp-eater in the system. I next to never get to a dock other than for emergency (as in, the tech requires dock access) purposes; all shorepower input to our boat comes from the Honda 2000, at about a net of $5 a day, unless it's brilliantly sunny with a constant 15knot breeze, in which case, we can pretty well keep up. But we've had perhaps one of those days in the past year. If the reefer were having the same draw as the FB, it might run every 2nd or 3rd day, adding more costs to this debacle.

OTOH, the Honda doesn't have to run, typically, if the reefer is off, as has been the case for a variety of reasons a few times since its installation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post

Chlorine pretty much attacks everything, plastic, rubber, metal, cloth, you name it. I'd be afraid to know what could happen to your entire cooling system after six months of that. Shock treatment, yes. prolonged use? I'd be afraid.

If you can't locate suitable filter media, you should be able to buy almost any grade of fine stainless steel screen mesh from Small Parts Co., which oddly enough was bought by Amazon not too long ago. All sorts of materials and "maker" supplies, available in small quantity via the Amazon web site.
The filter isn't really a concern any more. I checked it just now - the tablets are gone, but there's not a lot of residue of what had totally packed the filter the last time.

This check was 7 days. We had some mud, a fair amount of vegetation, but NO black stuff which was the norm before.

I'm nervous about trying it bare, as I truly don't want to do the cleanout again if I can avoid it, but I'm inclined to go a week on and a week off (or, two weeks running, if I find that it's not packing up).

I just don't know how long the system will stay open (to get water!) here. If it was worse here 2 years ago, I don't know about it, as I had the FB at that time. But I understand about the advisability of limiting the chlorine the system sees.

Thanks, skipmac, for the clarification. It appears I don't benefit from using the HTH over chlorine tablets...

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
A closed system will work, of that I'm certain, you see them all over the place, your boats Diesel cooling system is an example.
It can be as simple as an automobile transmission cooler dropped overboard while your at dock with a $12 pump to circulate the coolant.
What's a dock? (see above) Also, we use the refrigeration under way; hanging over the side probably wouldn't do well in that situation, even if we were willing to have a trip-hazard like that on deck


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I doubt manufactures use it because it's more complex, expensive, has more moving parts and maybe uses more electrical power. If designed and installed correctly an air system simply doesn't need all that.
Agreed. Yet, here we are. I'm working up to another call to the manufacturer, and, if I can locate him, the installation company (there's a rumor he sold out to concentrate on Sailors Exchange, of which he's also an owner; old knees...), because this just isn't working.

Quote:
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But air seems to have failed you, yet liquid cooling works.
Your faced with one of two solutions as I see it, either make the air system work, or make the liquid system work.
Agreed. The liquid system is working, and gives the appearance of being able to continue, albeit at risk from chlorine. Richard Kollmann has been silent on the subject despite some mails to him...

L8R

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Old 26-08-2014, 15:02   #22
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Re: Chlorine in Water-Cooled Refrigeration Flow

Sorry about that, the way it seemed you were stationary, I assumed docked
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Old 26-08-2014, 15:11   #23
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Re: Chlorine in Water-Cooled Refrigeration Flow

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Sorry about that, the way it seemed you were stationary, I assumed docked
No problem. Amps would probably not be on our **** list if we were tied in!

For that matter, I'd have little means of really knowing, as what tells me is my battery monitor (Trimetric 2020), what my amp draw is.

But now I get a numerical readout of how much it's pulling (overnight readings, with no sun or wind to influence, are very consistent in hourly draw averages), and empirical evidence in how far down in total it is every morning (leading to the regular use of the Honda)...

L8R

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