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Old 19-05-2015, 11:37   #76
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

I gave this some more thought last night, and came to the following conclusion: It appears that SOME of what kenomatic is saying is true. I have done some research and it appears that European boats don't appear to have holding tanks, at least boat adds don't advertise them or their capacity, if they exist at all. They drop their crap where ever they are when the need hits them. If they are out to sea that is where it gets dropped. If they are in a crowded marina that is where it gets dropped. If somebody is swimming by their boat when the need hits then that swimmer gets crap in their face and hair. It appears that only North America, the US in particular, is concerned with environmental pollution. At least it helps explain why planet Earth is on a collision course with disaster with only such a small portion of the world actually caring what actually happens to the world. If it were me it would depress me that I was brought up with this level of moral and civil standards to think that this behavior was acceptable. There is a big difference between CAN I do something and SHOULD I do something...what the LEGAL obligation is vs. what the MORAL obligation to society is. The main conversation has centered around if the biomass of the ocean can render feces non-toxic, and over time it can, time being dependent on how rapidly the water changes to dilute the toxins and associated germs in a given mass of water. To me I find it disgusting that a chunk of feces can brush my face, my lips, and make it's way into my mouth while swimming in feces contaminated water...regardless of whether all the bacteria, virus, Hep A, E coli, etc. has been rendered "safe for human consumption." The thought of ingesting feces that somebody has just deposited in my swimming water, well, I find repugnant, but apparently others find it totally acceptable. They can eat it for all I care, because I do not intend to go in their feces contaminated water. 'Nuf said...I'm going to forget this subject ever came up.
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Old 19-05-2015, 12:07   #77
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

As a parting thought kenomatic has spent much effort saying how 99.9% of the cruising world does not even have holding tanks, this is a US unique requirement. Nobody in his part of the world has one...you just can't find one on a boat over there, anywhere, even if you wanted one! Yet, I rechecked his original post, #8, and he admits that his boat has one, he just doesn't take the effort to use it. I checked online and apparently all oyster53's have them so his boat is not unique by any means. Is it likely that MOST boats over there have them, and through laziness and apathy nobody uses them...giving the appearance that nobody has them? Maybe they are not quite so rare as kenomatic makes them sound.
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Old 19-05-2015, 12:10   #78
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

Lots of older cities have combined sewers where the same pipes that carry sewage also carries storm water. In these systems it is mostly true in saying that during a storm (i.e. large rain) event that the sewage plant can not handle the flow so it is diverted to the the outfall.

BUT

At the start of the event the excess flow probably goes into storage basins. This is called the first flush and includes most of the sewage that was in the pipes at the time. This is later pumped back to the treatment plant for treatment. After the first flush the flow going into the outfall includes both sewage and rainwater, but the sewage is greatly diluted and of course the receiving water that the outfall dumps into is also getting all the run off from the land.

Using the story that "all" sewers are dumping into the outfall during a storm to justify that you don't need a holding tank and just discharge overboard in the harbor is in this case just crap!
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Old 19-05-2015, 12:12   #79
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

Captain-Avenger,

Best you sell the boat, stay home and never go in the water again. Fish and marine mammals crap in the water all the time. Kids crap in the local community swimming pool.

Sorry.... hate to be the one to break the news to you.
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Old 19-05-2015, 12:16   #80
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Captain-Avenger,

Best you sell the boat, stay home and never go in the water again. Fish and marine mammals crap in the water all the time. Kids crap in the local community swimming pool.

Sorry.... hate to be the one to break the news to you.
So you are lowering your status to that of a fish, or a 5 year old child. Cool...I really appreciate you doing that for me. Oh, and I hate to break it to you...I don't swim in public pools...because of the disgusting little buggers that think it is OK to crap/pee in the pool! Now I really have to find that unsubscribe link...your crap is way too entertaining...of little social value, but a lot like a train wreck. So have fun calling me names knowing that you are doing it for your amusement (like you kicking a dead dog) because I won't be reading them.
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Old 19-05-2015, 12:21   #81
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post

Using the story that "all" sewers are dumping into the outfall during a storm to justify that you don't need a holding tank and just discharge overboard in the harbor is in this case just crap!
Just wait a minute there Sailorboy.... You were doing pretty good there with your first paragraph in your post...

BUT....

I remember sailing out of Salem harbor two years ago on a Hunter 410 with a fellow YOU know quite well... And watching as he dumped the entire contents of his holding tank within a quarter mile of the shore at the harbor entrance.

REMEMBER????

I've never done that.
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Old 19-05-2015, 12:22   #82
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain-Avenger View Post
I gave this some more thought last night, and came to the following conclusion: It appears that SOME of what kenomatic is saying is true. I have done some research and it appears that European boats don't appear to have holding tanks, at least boat adds don't advertise them or their capacity, if they exist at all.
As I said earlier in Baltic it's mandatory and most of the Northern Europe has plenty of pumping stations..
They drop their crap where ever they are when the need hits them. If they are out to sea that is where it gets dropped. If they are in a crowded marina that is where it gets dropped. If somebody is swimming by their boat when the need hits then that swimmer gets crap in their face and hair. It appears that only North America, the US in particular, is concerned with environmental pollution. At least it helps explain why planet Earth is on a collision course with disaster with only such a small portion of the world actually caring what actually happens to the world.
Hopefully the US in particular would become more concerned with environmental pollution. Instead of worrying floaters think about the amount's of CO2 you are dumping in the atmosphere
If it were me it would depress me that I was brought up with this level of moral and civil standards to think that this behavior was acceptable.
Double moral..
There is a big difference between CAN I do something and SHOULD I do something...what the LEGAL obligation is vs. what the MORAL obligation to society is. The main conversation has centered around if the biomass of the ocean can render feces non-toxic, and over time it can, time being dependent on how rapidly the water changes to dilute the toxins and associated germs in a given mass of water.
What the he** are you eating if the sh** is toxic. Or what Monsanto is feeding you?
To me I find it disgusting that a chunk of feces can brush my face, my lips, and make it's way into my mouth while swimming in feces contaminated water...regardless of whether all the bacteria, virus, Hep A, E coli, etc. has been rendered "safe for human consumption." The thought of ingesting feces that somebody has just deposited in my swimming water, well, I find repugnant, but apparently others find it totally acceptable. They can eat it for all I care, because I do not intend to go in their feces contaminated water. 'Nuf said...I'm going to forget this subject ever came up.
Comment's blue..

As a former plummer I might be somewhat more tolerant against poob than most but that's a real fobia man.
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Old 19-05-2015, 12:49   #83
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Just wait a minute there Sailorboy.... You were doing pretty good there with your first paragraph in your post...

BUT....

I remember sailing out of Salem harbor two years ago on a Hunter 410 with a fellow YOU know quite well... And watching as he dumped the entire contents of his holding tank within a quarter mile of the shore at the harbor entrance.

REMEMBER????

I've never done that.
You must be pretty distance challenged.
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Old 19-05-2015, 13:15   #84
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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[...] The fact is, it is only an issue in the US. I can see why. [...]

Here in Bermuda very, very few boats have holding tanks and even fewer use them.
I believe that Bermuda law prohibits discharge within 12nm. According to the Bermuda department of tourism, violations are prosecuted. I'm not sure that a full 12nm is really needed, but some bays (e.g. St. George's Bay) don't recycle their water often.

If you want to see what it looks like with hundreds of boats discharging into a body of water that doesn't flush itself often, take a look at the lagoon in St. Marten. I have no interest in swimming in that "nutrient rich" water.

I believe that some of the states in New England have the right idea -- they support no discharge areas by offering multiple pump-out docks and free pump out service. In my experience, some pump-out drivers accept tips, and some point out as municipal employees it is illegal for them to accept them.

Oddly, although Bermuda bans boats from discharge within 12nm, the sewage from Bermuda undergoes only preliminary treatment before discharge between 700meters and 1600 meters from shore.
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Old 19-05-2015, 13:42   #85
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Originally Posted by Captain-Avenger View Post
As a parting thought kenomatic has spent much effort saying how 99.9% of the cruising world does not even have holding tanks, this is a US unique requirement. Nobody in his part of the world has one...you just can't find one on a boat over there, anywhere, even if you wanted one! Yet, I rechecked his original post, #8, and he admits that his boat has one, he just doesn't take the effort to use it. I checked online and apparently all oyster53's have them so his boat is not unique by any means. Is it likely that MOST boats over there have them, and through laziness and apathy nobody uses them...giving the appearance that nobody has them? Maybe they are not quite so rare as kenomatic makes them sound.
Sorry guy, but I never wrote that... Stop making stuff up to further your agenda.

I wrote that I have a 15 gallon holding tank, and have never used it (post #8). I also wrote someplace that 99.9 percent of the cruising world thinks the regulations in the U.S. are a joke (which they are). or something to that effect. And that only in America are people worried about $hit like this.... nothing about how many boats have holding tanks. I also wrote that there are very few if any pump out stations in Europe.... Again, nothing about holding tanks.

But if you want to waste time looking up stuff like that... Go right ahead. But on a parting note, since I see you are again unsubscribing for the third time on this thread.... I will continue our fish feeding habits, just like everyone else in the Med. Best for you to stay in America if that's where you feel safe.
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Old 20-05-2015, 00:09   #86
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

Are any of the Mediterranean nations not signatory to MARPOL V? Do recreational boats "dump below the radar" in prohibited locations as part of a widespread outlaw culture or do officials just not give a sh**?
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:05   #87
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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I would suggest that those with the opposing opinions here recognize that we're speaking of a dynamic balance where organic wastes can be harmless or concentrated to a degree causing disease and eutrophication. People seem to ignore the continuum between. Some conditions can allow for little concern for holding tanks and pump outs, while others require measures to be taken. Those holding a fast unwavering opinion are not accounting for all the variables.
This is the issue with govt regulations. As long as you are clear of marinas and tightly packed anchorages, it's completely harmless but they try to push boaters further and further out...net result, more people quietly dump late at night because it's such a hassle.

Someone mentioned hormones and chemotherapy drugs. Guess what modern water treatment plants do nothing to remove those.

Glad we switched to a composter so we don't have to worry about the poopy police.
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:30   #88
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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The problem with the Internet is, anyone can post something as "fact" even when it is not and that person cannot back up their statement.

FACT (actual fact):

1) Some, not "nearly all" sewage does overflow treatment plants and makes it to the rivers and ocean. When there is a problem or overload, people and equipment are dispatched to contain the sewage. No one goes out to contain sewage. Also, the issue with sewage is concentration and dumping a large city's 100's of thousands of gallons of sewage straight into the sea will far outweigh the effect of a few cruising boats making occasional deposits of 10-20 gallons hear and there.

2) Authorities in the USA routinely test beaches for bacteria and close them when necessary. They also monitor shellfish areas and close them when the bacteria count gets too high. And most of those closures are traced to storm overflows or ironically wildlife. I've never heard of one traced to cruising boats.

If you want to write about the USA, it helps if you actually know about it. That's hard to do in your "fantasy land".
Sorry but when you start insisting on FACTs, get them right.
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:33   #89
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

Along the Mississippi river many towns draw water from the river for drinking. Many also put their sewage treatment plant along the river so they can discharge the treated water back into the river. They usually bragged that the treated waste water was cleaner than the river water. But when I lived along the river about 25 years ago not one city I could find placed their sewage treatment plant upriver from their drinking water plant.
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Old 20-05-2015, 06:12   #90
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Along the Mississippi river many towns draw water from the river for drinking. Many also put their sewage treatment plant along the river so they can discharge the treated water back into the river. They usually bragged that the treated waste water was cleaner than the river water. But when I lived along the river about 25 years ago not one city I could find placed their sewage treatment plant upriver from their drinking water plant.
One more point to be made related to your statement, when cities draw their drinking water from a river or lake, it's generally not done directly. They draw it from deep wells several hundred yards away from the rivers edge in order to allow for filtration prior to chlorinization. But also, discharging directly into fresh water is a little different than salt water. Most bacteria can survive a while longer in fresh water as I understand it, plus the water will be used possibly for drinking water. If I had a small boat on an inland lake that was being used as a reservoir, I would feel uncomfortable knowing people were flushing toilets into the lake. I personally dont know of any people who drink salt water directly.
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