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Old 18-05-2015, 14:00   #46
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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It's really interesting reading all the posts for and against overboard discharge. The fact is, it is only an issue in the US. I can see why. You have lots of protected waterways with very little flow in or out, not to mention freshwater lakes with none. If the nationalities of the world were represented equally or proportionally on this forum, it would be a non-issue.

Here in Bermuda very, very few boats have holding tanks and even fewer use them. We have several locations where boats congragate in large masses regularly during the summer months. On one day of the year about 40,000 people congregate and spend the entire day from dawn until dusk peeing and pooping directly into the water in one bay. The Bermuda Institute of Ocean Sciences has an ongoing study that focusses on these areas of aggregation (one of which - Paradise Lakes - is really quite enclosed) looking quantitatively at bacterial species that are commonly found in human excrement. The vast majority or these species (some of which have been shown to be pathogenic) become non-viable within seconds, or at most minutes. There is one species which is tested for specifically because it has the longest survival in sea water of any bacteria so far discovered which is also found in human excrement. Elevated counts of this species can be found for up to 2 days. After that it's back to baseline. The concentrations needed to present a risk of pathogenicity are never reached even at the peak.

I have never heard of anyone ever becoming sick as a result of exposure to seawater containing effluence from yachts. If anyone can tell me otherwise i'm all ears. Otherwise, it's all down to personal and cultural preference and really a matter of individual comfort.
Refreshing to see another voice of reason... instead of name calling and mud slinging coming from the more higly evolved.
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Old 18-05-2015, 14:27   #47
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Refreshing to see another voice of reason... instead of name calling and mud slinging coming from the more higly evolved.
Just because I'm "highly evolved" does not make me always right, but thank you for the compliment. But I should point out that that is an observation on your part, not a restatement of any facts on my part. And if one person agrees with you that is "another voice of reason", but if 20 agree with me we are foolish? I fail to see your logic in some of your conclusions. But, to the current post...

Maybe boaters in Bermuda do not see a problem with dumping raw sewage because according to the Bermuda Institute of Ocean Sciences "Bermuda has no national sewerage system in place for the sewage that is generated on a daily basis." If Bermuda as a whole is not treating sewage why should individual boaters? And I can understand that if Bermuda does not treat sewage on the island that there will be no dumping stations available even if you wanted one. But most countries do treat sewage and not just dump it into the sea, where as I may have a different opinion on the subject for those countries.
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Old 18-05-2015, 14:38   #48
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Thank you for this post. I believe that dumping sewage at sea, or at least 3 miles from land is not a problem. I was taking exception to the "never" use a holding tank regardless of proximity to land or anybody else. I did a quick Google search on "raw sewage in the Mediterranean" and was surprised at the results, which I won't post out of respect for this file, but they are interesting none the less.
Baltic is quite well covered and dumping oveboard is not allowed. Anyway believe so, It's deep south to me..
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Old 18-05-2015, 14:40   #49
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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But most countries do treat sewage and not just dump it into the sea, where as I may have a different opinion on the subject for those countries.
Fact: During periods of rainfall, most (as in nearly all) of the sewage from US cities flows directly into the oceans, rivers and lakes UNTREATED when the treatment plants become over loaded. People still go swimming afterwards, and.... no widespead human disease epidemics. Por que?

So... Even in Fantasyland, the sewage gets dumped into the waterways untreated, leaving the ocean biomass to do the job.
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Old 18-05-2015, 15:09   #50
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

" People still go swimming afterwards, and.... no widespead human disease epidemics. Por que?"

The reason for no widespread epidemics among the general population, is that drinking water is well-treated.

There is most definitely a causal link between swimming in contaminated waters, and disease. Surfers are particularly prone.

An interesting WHO report :

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_.../recreadis.pdf

An interesting article :

http://www.sas.org.uk/the-risks-of-mixing-with-sewage/

I quote from the Surfrider website :

"The Surfrider Foundation has always advised the public never to swim or surf after a rain. The coastal waters are polluted with urban runoff and sewage from leaking water logged sewer pipes. In most places, and especially in Southern California, ocean water quality after a rain is dangerous.

In Southern California most counties issues a 72-hour advisory after it rains. Unfortunately, they do not post the beaches after a rain. The Orange County Department of Health has been quoted as saying, "We just assume all surfers know that the water is polluted after it rains." Surfrider thinks increased outreach must be done to warn surfers of the risks.

A study cited in EPA's draft guidance document on water quality found that surfers and divers were at greater risk of illness from contact with contaminated beach water than are swimmers or waders. In addition, an epidemiological study in Santa Monica Bay found that there is increased risk in swimming within 400 yards of a flowing storm drain. In Southern California you will be hard pressed to find a stretch of surf that isn't near a storm drain.

Waters that are polluted may contain several different disease-causing organisms, commonly called pathogens. Enteric pathogens -- those that live in the human intestine - can carry or cause a number of infectious diseases. Swimmers in sewage-polluted water could contract any illness that is spread by ingestion of fecal-contaminated water. (AIDS and many other diseases are not carried by enteric pathogens.)

Viruses are believed to be the major cause of swimming-associated diseases, and are responsible for gastroenteritis, hepatitis, respiratory illness, and ear, nose, and throat problems. Gastroenteritis, which can also be caused by bacteria, is a common term for a variety of diseases that can cause symptoms such as vomiting, diarrhea, stomach ache, nausea, headache, and fever. Other microbial diseases that can be contracted by swimmers include salmonellosis, shigellosis, and infection caused by E. coli (a type of enteric pathogen). Other microbial pathogens found at varying concentrations in recreational waters include amoeba and protozoa, which can cause giardiasis, amoebic dysentery, skin rashes, and pink eye.

There is also what we call the "toxic cocktail" of pesticides, herbicides, heavy metals and other pollutants that are not monitored regularly and the health effects are poorly understood.

Here are a couple (very) extreme Surfrider examples from last year that resulted from presumed sewage spills:

Chris O'Connel had a cut on his arm and went in Mission Bay San Diego after a recent rain. His arm became infected with the Streptococcus bacteria and he almost died. Three operations and two and half weeks in the hospital saved his life.

Also, a member of the Long Beach Chapter of Surfrider Foundation became infected with the same bacteria after surfing near the San Gabriel River Mouth. Charles Moore of Long Beach was also hospitalized for two weeks."

To learn more visit Surfrider's website: Surfrider Foundation
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Old 18-05-2015, 15:21   #51
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Fact: During periods of rainfall, most (as in nearly all) of the sewage from US cities flows directly into the oceans, rivers and lakes UNTREATED when the treatment plants become over loaded. People still go swimming afterwards, and.... no widespead human disease epidemics. Por que?

My holding tank is FULL. I am unsubscribing to this thread. It started out as holding tank capacity and has degraded to "it is OK to dump your feces where others are taking dish washing water or swimming?" I refuse to lower myself to the level of delusional statements like "FACT: During periods of rainfall, most (as in nearly all) of the sewage from US cities flows directly into the oceans, rivers and lakes UNTREATED." It's OK to make up your opinions...but it is not acceptable to make up your own "facts." I don't know what you have against the US, or civilized society in general, but it certainly isn't appealing. There are none so deft as those who refuse to hear.


I'm big on anti-pollution, and believe we are all stewards of this planet...that everybody owes it to society to leave this planet in better shape than when we entered it. I don't throw trash out my window...I don't pee on telephone poles...and I have never dumped my feces into any waterway, anywhere. I of course contribute to landfills, but recycle everything I can. I try to be the best person I can be, for myself and for society. Some of the deadliest diseases on earth come from feces contaminated water...clean water, it's one of the main things that separate us from 3rd world countries. May you never be infected by feces contaminated water. May you wake up to reality before it is too late.
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Old 18-05-2015, 15:31   #52
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

Not trying to hijack, but u might consider a composting head- Airhead, c-head-no water in flushing(stirred) and u dont EVER have to unclog!!

Water for long term cruising- I have a r/o watermaker

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Old 18-05-2015, 15:34   #53
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

Vibrio Cholera is halophillic,- salt water tolerant and counts have occasionally been seen off the Pacific Coast south of California. In order to have disease spread from human waste, the humans needs to be carriers of the pathogens. Some cultures have far more antibiotic use than others. There was an alert for the possible spread of pathogens from the decay of bodies after the Twin Towers in New York were destroyed, but no discernable risk; yet, disease was rampant after the Haiti earthquake. If the pathogens are not cyclic in the environment there is less risk of an outbreak.

Answering another question, regarding the pore size to block bacteria, 0.45 microns is the standard filter pore size used for microbiotic analysis of drinking water.

In addition, there shold not be the focus only on human diseases. Water quality and excess nutrients are believed to be the cause for a great loss of coral reefs and their dependent species.
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Old 18-05-2015, 15:39   #54
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

So... According to the experts at Surfrider, I was correct in stating that US cities DO in fact dump copius amounts (as in tens of millions of gallons) of raw sewage into the waterways following a rain storm.... No surprise. So why then doesn't everyone get sick and die, or... why doesnt the ocean fill up with poop?

Let me inject a little university biology science into the mix, rather than blind emotion. E coli and other intestinal bacteria do just fine in human intestines, but when they hit salt water (the key words SALT WATER).... They die immediately due to osmosis. Basically, the E. coli cells explode, die and become instant fish food... food for the trillions of plancton and crill in the ocean, otherwise known as the ocean biomass.

The ocean biomass is a natural composter, only it does its job much more quickly and efficiently than any composter toilet on the market. The job gets done in seconds if one uses a macerating head.
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Old 18-05-2015, 16:01   #55
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

If you use the holding tank for #2's only, you'll get a lot more effective capacity. I'd think in anything other than extreme cases, peeing over the side wouldn't be a problem? What do those with composting heads do with the contents of their jugs?
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Old 18-05-2015, 16:13   #56
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post

Here are a couple (very) extreme Surfrider examples from last year that resulted from presumed sewage spills:

Chris O'Connel had a cut on his arm and went in Mission Bay San Diego after a recent rain. His arm became infected with the Streptococcus bacteria and he almost died. Three operations and two and half weeks in the hospital saved his life.

Also, a member of the Long Beach Chapter of Surfrider Foundation became infected with the same bacteria after surfing near the San Gabriel River Mouth. Charles Moore of Long Beach was also hospitalized for two weeks."

To learn more visit Surfrider's website: Surfrider Foundation
He did not get the nasty strep infection from sewage runoff. Strep and staph bacteria are around all of us, all the time. It' only when our body has a weakness in our imune system that we can get the infection. In his case... he went swimming with an open cut. Most likely, he picked up the pathogen going to or coming from the ocean.

Don't believe me? Just ask any registered nurse or medical doctor.
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Old 18-05-2015, 16:16   #57
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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......................
................. Let me inject a little university biology science into the mix, rather than blind emotion. E coli and other intestinal bacteria do just fine in human intestines, but when they hit salt water (the key words SALT WATER).... They die immediately due to osmosis. Basically, the E. coli cells explode, die and become instant fish food...
...................
...............
Let me suggest that you're right, but wrong. The isotonic solution for the best survival of E. coli is a salinity of about 0.85% and the average ocean salinity is 3.5%; therefore, you'r right that they don't survive, but they don't "explode", but lose water from their cell in the hypertonic solution.

So.... picky, picky, me! Bottom line, you're right, E coli does not survive in sea water, but then there's still the organic nutrient problem in many areas. There can be other pathogens that are halotolerant.

It's just not that simple a question to have one right answer for all locations and it has nothing to do with some people inhabiting certain areas of earth being "better" than others!
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Old 18-05-2015, 16:40   #58
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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1. ..........I refuse to lower myself to the level of delusional statements like "FACT: During periods of rainfall, most (as in nearly all) of the sewage from US cities flows directly into the oceans, rivers and lakes UNTREATED." It's OK to make up your opinions...but it is not acceptable to make up your own "facts." I don't know what you have against the US, or civilized society in general, but it certainly isn't appealing. There are none so deft as those who refuse to hear.

2. I'm big on anti-pollution, and believe we are all stewards of this planet...that everybody owes it to society to leave this planet in better shape than when we entered it. I don't throw trash out my window...I don't pee on telephone poles...

3. Some of the deadliest diseases on earth come from feces contaminated water...clean water, it's one of the main things that separate us from 3rd world countries. May you never be infected by feces contaminated water. May you wake up to reality before it is too late.
1. The FACT is that many, many, many USA sewage treatment plants are overwhelmed when it rains. It happens here ON A REGULAR BASIS in Northern California. The one in Sausalito is a particular example.

2. I agree. And most of us don't.

3. There is a big difference between drinking water and sewage.

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In Southern California most counties issues a 72-hour advisory after it rains. Unfortunately, they do not post the beaches after a rain. The Orange County Department of Health has been quoted as saying, "We just assume all surfers know that the water is polluted after it rains." Surfrider thinks increased outreach must be done to warn surfers of the risks.
If people in southern California are that remote from reality and don't understand, that after almost six DECADES, their runoff pollutes their own beaches, they oughta get their heads out of the sand. (pi ).
I'm sure the surfers already know that. "Increased outreach?" Read a newspaper, read the internet, listen to a radio news story after a rain. Wait! Maybe since it HAPPENS ALL THE TIME it's no longer news....
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Old 18-05-2015, 17:15   #59
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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My holding tank is FULL....I refuse to lower myself to the level of delusional statements....... and I have never dumped my feces into any waterway, anywhere....
Thats because your city or town does it for you. Where do your think your poo goes when you flush in Fantasyland? Who's being delusional?
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Old 18-05-2015, 17:38   #60
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

Our 90 litre (20 gallon?) holding tank lasts 2 of us 4 days. It is used in all anchorages/harbours that are either non-tidal (no circulation to flush the bay), or that are designated no-discharge zones (and there are lots of them).
Our 350 litres (90 gallons?) water lasts 2 of us about 3 weeks; the secret to conserving fresh water is to not have a pressurised water system. If you have to pump it yourself you take a lot more care about using it.
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