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Old 18-05-2015, 10:40   #16
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Originally Posted by Captain-Avenger View Post
I can't believe that somebody would admit in writing that they leave their crap all over the place for other people to worry about. I like to think that where I go the water is clean enough to just jump overboard and enjoy an afternoon swim without the worry of coming back on board with somebodies feces stuck in my hair. In the US I like to think that others are more respectful of the rights of others to a clean and safe boating environment for all.
I'm not in America, so I don't have to be politically correct. The rest of the world is laughing at the political correctness and the notion that Americans think their poop is somehow special.

News flash..... There are no pump out stations outside America or rather very few and far between, which you would discover if you venture away from the USA. The water and Eco system is actually much cleaner over here in the Med.... Even with people and this big guy pooping in the agua.
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Old 18-05-2015, 10:49   #17
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

It is true that organic wastes are a natural cyclic material in a healthy ecosystem; however, within a more dense human population (or other large animals) excess wastes cause three potential problems. One of these is excess nutrients than can promote algae growth and eventually change dissolved oxygen levels and kill off fish, coral, etc. A second problem is the potential for speading pathogens such as vibrio cholera and more. The third and less detrimental problem is the poor quality of the water due to odors and appearance.

The rules make good sense in dense harbors & those wihout a strong tidal flush.

With two cruising aboard, we due well with a 20 gallon holding tank and a second aft cabin holding tank that holds 8 gallons, but with rare use. We also carry about 200 gallons of water.

I'd like to install a composting head, but I've yet to be able to convince my wife that it's wise not to increase the volume of wastes by mixing it with water and storing the slurry. Dessicated feces takes up about one hundredth the space and don't have the weight or odor.
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Old 18-05-2015, 11:10   #18
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I'm not in America, so I don't have to be politically correct. The rest of the world is laughing at the political correctness and the notion that Americans think their poop is somehow special.

News flash..... There are no pump out stations outside America or rather very few and far between, which you would discover if you venture away from the USA. The water and Eco system is actually much cleaner over here in the Med.... Even with people and this big guy pooping in the agua.
I think you will find that all other first world countries either have similar legislation, or are developing it. In Europe, for example, discharge is illegal anything from 2 miles to 12 miles from the coast, varying by country.

In fact, I would say that preventing exposure of humans to untreated sewage is one of the key things that makes a country civilised.

Why don't you ask the sailors who are facing competing at the next Olympics, in a bay that is essentially a sewer, what their opinions are on sewage treatment.
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Old 18-05-2015, 11:20   #19
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Our holding tank is 15 gallons, but.... We've never used it. The through hull is open all the time because we refuse to allow our boat to succum to encopresis.

The ocean is a natural composter, no need for specialized equipment. You're just fine with six gallon capacity... flush away.

P.S. Only American boaters worry about this $hit. There are no $hit police outside America. Just as soon as my good friend Mike clears out of US waters, he's going to wonder why he ever switched over to a composter. He's going to switch back and flush overboard in a jiffy.
No it Is not only Americans who are obsessed with pump out regulations but most of Europe and Australia ( esp. Australia) .
While I agree in many situations it is quite harmless to release black water directly there are equally many places and times where it would be a genuine hazard if only for the smell.
Ordinary people are not qualified to know those situations and so the necessity to respect blanket regulations even if we don't agree with them.
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Old 18-05-2015, 11:27   #20
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
I think you will find that all other first world countries either have similar legislation, or are developing it. In Europe, for example, discharge is illegal anything from 2 miles to 12 miles from the coast, varying by country.

In fact, I would say that preventing exposure of humans to untreated sewage is one of the key things that makes a country civilised.

Why don't you ask the sailors who are facing competing at the next Olympics, in a bay that is essentially a sewer, what their opinions are on sewage treatment.
On the Atlantic coasts of Europe, there are either no rules at all about discharge other than inside harbors and near beaches, or they are completely ignored. The reason is tidal flushing makes it irrelevant.

In the tideless Baltic the rules are stricter, and in Sweden they have just banned any discharge in Swedish territorial waters. I just had on board as crew the head marine biologist of the Ministry of the Ecology of Denmark, a pre-eminent expert on the ecology of the Baltic Sea, who told me that all studies show that boat discharges have an unmeasurable and irrelevant effect on the ecology of the Baltic Sea, less than that of an hour of the normal discharges from the city sewage systems of a city like Gdansk. So even over here the rules don't necessarily follow logic and good sense, as much as emotions.


In any case, however, I think it is very poor to discharge in an anchorage, near a beach, or in an enclosed harbor or marina, especially if you don't have macerators on your marine toilets. I use my holding tank for such cases, and discharge as soon as I get to sea. It is not much trouble, and 125 liters has been plenty for this pattern of use.
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Old 18-05-2015, 11:31   #21
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
I think you will find that all other first world countries either have similar legislation, or are developing it. In Europe, for example, discharge is illegal anything from 2 miles to 12 miles from the coast, varying by country.

In fact, I would say that preventing exposure of humans to untreated sewage is one of the key things that makes a country civilised.

Why don't you ask the sailors who are facing competing at the next Olympics, in a bay that is essentially a sewer, what their opinions are on sewage treatment.
This is my fourth season living in the Med, before that it was a season along the west coast of Europe. During this entire time, I've only seen one pump out station. See the boats in this picture.... there probably isn't a pump out station within 100 miles of them and the water looks pretty clear to me.

I consider Spain, Italy and the UK very civilized... no pump out stations. American environmentalists just like to make a big deal about nada.
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Old 18-05-2015, 11:32   #22
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Our holding tank is 15 gallons, but.... We've never used it. The through hull is open all the time because we refuse to allow our boat to succum to encopresis.
You never come to port? Marinas? Near beaches or people's homes?


Quote:
P.S. Only American boaters worry about this $hit. There are no $hit police outside America. .
Another way of putting that is "Only in America have they figured out that human waste carries many diseases and a good way on minimize the spread of these diseases is control the disposal of human waste.
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Old 18-05-2015, 11:36   #23
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Originally Posted by Captain-Avenger View Post
I can't believe that somebody would admit in writing that they leave their crap all over the place for other people to worry about. .........
He's not only admitting it, he's bragging about it.
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Old 18-05-2015, 11:47   #24
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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..........I consider Spain, Italy and the UK very civilized... .
And I consider you gross and uninformed. Please stay where you are and never visit America. I don't want you pooping in my bushes.
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Old 18-05-2015, 11:48   #25
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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He's not only admitting it, he's bragging about it.
There are probably ten times the number of boats over here and ten times the number of people living along the shoreline, yet..... the water is many times cleaner and crystal clear compared to the U.S.

If you don't believe me... come over and see for yourself.
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Old 18-05-2015, 11:50   #26
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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I am looking a boats to begin cruising. The boat is a 36 foot with 6 gallon holding tank.............
Six gallons for a holding tank is way too small. Some porta potties hold that much. Fifteen gallons can be too small. Thirty would be better.
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Old 18-05-2015, 12:04   #27
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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Another way of putting that is "Only in America have they figured out that human waste carries many diseases and a good way on minimize the spread of these diseases is control the disposal of human waste.
You live in Fantasyland.
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Old 18-05-2015, 12:35   #28
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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A comment on composting. M current boat came with a composter. I called the factory and they described it a s perfect for a couple for a weekend with two weeks time between visits to the cabin. I am sure there are others that compost more quickly or have greater volume or something. It was four times the size of the typical low volume head. Not saying they don't work...I love the idea...but that and access to good coconut shavings or whatever the current medium is makes the composter a definite trade off on how you cruise. On our low volume head and a 13 gallon tank we get about ten 2s and twenty 1s. (gender has an impact). Two people for a three day weekend it works fine with spare capacity. So back to what is cruising and where?
Not sure what composter you have rbrentp. We get, on average, over a month of usage out our Nature's Head before having to dump the pile. That's 2 people, full time. Coir (compressed coconut husks) seems to be easily available at garden centres and on various Amazon vendors. I carry a year's worth of compressed bricks in approximately the same space as large bucket, so easy to acquire and store.

As for the debate, last time I checked my facts human fecal waste carries pathogens that target humans. And like most mammalian feces, ours is high in nitrogen which promotes the growth of certain types of algae that can dessimate local aquatic ecosystems (see Lake Erie algae bloom). In areas where water is contained with little or slow volume exchange, such as in enclosed anchorages and contained marinas, overboard discharge is going to cause environmental and aesthetic problems. In areas where water flow is sufficient, such as a few miles off shore or (I assume) in areas Ken is talking about in the Med (I've never been there) dumping a little poop overboard would likely be more environmental friendly than concentrating the sewage and transporting it to an onshore waste disposal system.
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Old 18-05-2015, 12:51   #29
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

Back to the point:
- 60 gal of fresh water and we get a week without paying attention and with just modest effort stretch it to 2 weeks. We could probably get more but have never had to.
- Composter and get 3-5wks. 6 gal is a compliance tank.
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Old 18-05-2015, 13:01   #30
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Re: Capacity of holding tanks and water tanks

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This is my fourth season living in the Med, before that it was a season along the west coast of Europe. During this entire time, I've only seen one pump out station. See the boats in this picture.... there probably isn't a pump out station within 100 miles of them and the water looks pretty clear to me.

I consider Spain, Italy and the UK very civilized... no pump out stations. American environmentalists just like to make a big deal about nada.
Unfortunately some people think that if they can't see it it can't harm them. "Look how clean the water looks" said the man referencing the water full of E coli and other virus and germs that do nasty things when it comes in contact with humans. There are many germs in this world that cause really nasty diseases...and you can't see them by looking at the "pretty" water. It's one thing to not care that your waste is infecting others and causing others to get sick...it's another thing altogether to brag about dumping your crap where you know other, unsuspecting people, will come in contact with it and become very sick. That is so wrong on so many levels.

A mark of civilized people and a civilized society is the regard they have for fellow human beings, and the well being of people we share this planet with. It's one thing to void like an animal if you are an animal that knows no better. It is another to do it if you should know better, but don't. But it's even worse when you don't know better, and when it is pointed out to you how wrong it is, you defend your feces flinging ways like a monkey in the zoo. With luck I will never cross your wake.
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