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Old 10-12-2009, 15:49   #31
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Originally Posted by 7SeasSailor View Post
Would a household refrigerator work on a sailboat? Yes,
Thanks for acknowledging the fact, though I will admit they work better on Multihulls than Monos.
Quote:
home fridges are cheaper than marine refrigerators.
Yes they are
By many many thousand of dollars
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At home, central air keeps the environment cool with low humidity for the fridge.
At home I have no central air, many people dont.
Yesterday I had 32 Deg C in the house (89 F) and the fridge worked fine
Quote:
On a boat, temps can rise above 100 and the humidity can be 90 percent.
I would disagree.
From my many years of sailing and cruising, I was always cooler than I would have been on land, except for those nights when breeze was zero.
On land I could fire up a large fan, my sailing vessel at the time did not have this option, but the new vessel most certainly will have.
It may even have Household A/c to cool things down on these rare occasions.
Quote:
. On a boat, the home fridge will launch itself across the cabin if not bolted in,
So will a Marine fridge
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the doors will fly open spilling your expensive supplies all over the cabin
A simple catch is easily fitted
Are these worth the many thousand of dollars extra demanded for a marine fridge?
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and the compressor will die if it gets over 5 degrees off level.
I'm not sure if this is necessarily true, but as the installation is on a powercat and 44cc's is on a sailing cat, it hardly matters
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A marine fridge will use 1-2 amps on an average hourly basis on 12 volts. The home fridge won't run on 12 volts
That is an amazing observation.
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so you'll have to keep the generator running all the time when away from the dock
I think you are very much misinformed and mistaken
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or if you are stupid enough to use inverters, you'll suck your batteries dry overnight and you'll be dead in the water.
Try using your sideband to call for help with dead batteries.
I would not be so stupid as to have a single battery bank, would you?
I will have starting batteries separate to the house bank, so engines can still be started to charge if required and a honda pull start genny as backup when required.
Having redundancy in systems is good wouldn't you agree? Perhaps not
Quote:
With extensive inverter use to keep household appliances working, you'll kill batteries in a year or two. Get out your wallet to replace those!
Possibly, do you have any evidence to support this statement?
Lets not forget that I am many thousands of dollars in front of a 12 volt application already, so I could afford to replace batteries if required.
Quote:
A good marine refrigerator (like an Isotherm) uses the Danfoss compressor that comes with a five year warranty because they simply don't fail. The home refrigerator uses a cheap piece of junk that won't stand up to the marine environment and the warranty is voided for marine use.
I agree that the danfoss compressors are reliable, but dont fail?
Why do Yachties always seem to be chasing marine refrigeration experts?
As for a cheap peice of junk being used in household, perhaps you are correct, but that cheap junk has been working fine for 15 years so far in my un airconditioned hotbox of a house.
Quote:
The Danfoss will keep working at heels up to 30 degrees and when the pounding at sea is so bad it will knock your fillings out. The home fridge wants to go home to mommy.
I have no intention of heeling at 30 degrees or punishing the boat so badly as to knock my fillings out.
My wife will be on board, will she suffice as a surrogate Mummy if the fridge so desires one?

Quote:
The marine refrigerator uses factory injected, closed cell foam that has superior insulating properties over the panels or sheets you get from home depot for your "home made" fridge or the fiberglass batting used in home fridges.
I call bullshit on your comment
If the insulation is so good on store bought marine fridges, why have the likes of Richard Kolmann spent so much time lecturing on the merits of 4 inch plus?

Quote:
The marine fridge uses 316 grade stainless steel and composite materials to reduce the effects of corrosion. The home fridge turns into a rust bucket.
They do make s/s fridges for home now, have you not seen the large picture above?
Other components of a marine fridge are not s/s, the danfoss compressor for example.
Quote:
The marine refrigerator has a positive latching door designed to keep your jar of pickles and bottles of milk and wine safe and secure with cradles and adjustable holders. The home or RV refrigerator requires you put a latch on it because it will fly open and put your pickles and milk on the cabin floor and everything falls over on the cheap door shelves.
As mentioned before, a positive catch costs a few dollars and retro fitted adjustable holders not much either, hardly a good reason to justify the many thousand of dollars extra demanded for the marine fridge
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Oh, I forgot, there's no supermarket on Staniel Key and a jar of pickles is five bucks IF they have it.
Thats OK, I don't particularly like pickles, especially $5 ones
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The Engle and Norcold use an electronic compressor that works fine under light circumstances like a picnic or at an RV park. Alternating magnetic fields drive the compressor piston but looses efficiency and gobbles up power and makes noise when it gets hot. You stay awake at night wondering what the heck that noise is.
I had no intention of using either of these brands but thanks for the information
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It's cheap but if you have boating experience, cheap usually costs more in the end.
If you have any real world experience you would know that expensive is no guarantee of quality.
take your $5 pickles as an example.
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Finally, look close at the products you buy. It is smarter to use distributed marine refrigerators and freezers that are smaller and can be installed under a bunk or in the lazerette than one behemoth home fridge that, when it konks out in rough weather, will take hundreds of dollars of supplies with it.
I have no intention of using one behemoth of a unit
I plan of having a fridge and a seperatetop loading freezer as well
Quote:
You'll be popular with fellow cruisers when you pull into Mag Bay and have to empty your fridge and freezer for a beach BarBQue before you head back to San Diego to buy a proper marine refrigerator eating crackers and canned food all the way...
There are many examples of cruisers with marine refrigeration having to do similar.
I have been to a BBQ where a yacht had a couple of months worth of cryovaced meat that had defrosted and needed eating, so dont think that your marine refrigeration makes you somehow immune to failures.
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Old 10-12-2009, 16:08   #32
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Holly ice cubes Batman!!!

Cat dude, you ARE the man...

this should be fun to watch. Rock on...
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Old 10-12-2009, 16:15   #33
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Thanks Cat man do, I started but in the end couldn''t be bothered to take apart the erroneous arguments I would add, in Singapore and Malaysia, along with other places, the temperature is consistently 28 to 30 degree Centigrade with 95 to 100% humidity. Even market traders have highly efficient domestic fridges and freezers. I've never yet had a warm Tiger Beer there

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Old 10-12-2009, 16:20   #34
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A very trollish and ignorant 2nd post (as if the first wasn't bad enough) and I wast going to reply, but what the hell, its a slow morning and I am up for a laugh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7SeasSailor View Post
Hey CatManDo: Please. A cat is a platform for landlubbers.
Many thousands of world sailors and cruisers would disagree as would I.
Many has been the time that I have headed out on my last cat for a pleasant blast around the bay when Mono sailors have been running home to mummy as a strong wind warning had been issued.
I suppose those monos must have been a platforms for landlubbers.
Quote:
Cats skuttle from one protected anchorage to another looking to avoid the weather.
Again, in my years of sailing there have been many times where I have headed out from an anchorage in strong wind while mono's stayed tucked up.
Admittedly I was heading downhill, but so were the mono's that wouldnt venture out.
I will admit on the new vessel I will be avoiding foul weather as best I can and will be waiting for favourable weather patterns but many mono sailors do the same and some would consider this action to be good seamanship.
Quote:
You certainly don't want to be caught in nasty weather on a catamaran. Read that book about the cat that flipped in New Zealand
Really? many many cats have weathered nasty weather better than their single hulled mates in the same storm.
QB storm off NZ to tong is one that comes to mind.
Can you provide more info on this cat that flipped and while your at it provide info on POWERED cats that have flipped.

I will hunt up all my mono sinking and disappearing to the bottom stories if you like.
Quote:
you'll think twice if you're the fat guy and your buddies are looking at you like dinner after a few days.
Just as well I wont be sailing with cannibals, but at the end of the day, they did have a vast floating highly visible raft that they were sitting on and, you may find that it was a trimaran, but please, correct me and link to the story.
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You are building a power cat which is not a sailboat anyway so you're making a condo that floats
Yes and yes, very observant of you, 2 points to you.
Quote:
you can use all the home appliances you want.
Thank you for the permission, but I didn't really need it.
Also I dont plan on using all home appliances, my radar, GPS, Plotters, Pumps, Winches, etc etc will all be marine (do they use these in houses) so it's really only a couple of things I am considering and I will not have been the first one to use them.
What you may find strange, new and frightening concept, others have been using for many years now with great success and they are so cheap to replace when they fail, as ALL systems do eventually.
Quote:
In the end, you're better off staying home and buying a time share condo on the beach and forgo the problems you'll encounter if you ever leave the dock for more than a couple of hours.
Again, an incredibly ignorant comment from you, but I dont need or want time share anything.
I am in a position to have this vessel, unencumbered and yes it will be a waterfront condo for us with a different view every week and very few neighbors.
I have never stayed in Marinas before and have little intention of doing so this time.

Thanks for your concern
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Old 10-12-2009, 16:30   #35
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Throwing a stone into the pond to watch the ripples I've only had my long range motor cruiser for just under 6 months but you know what, when ever there is a potluck arranged, guess where all the deprived sailors want to hold it I've a friend, something of a pioneer, who cruises in a Nordhavn 46, who teases the cave dwellers by telling them he throws the ice out every three days because there is no more room Actually, like me, he just switches of the ice maker There is NOTHING wrong with being comfortable

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Old 10-12-2009, 16:37   #36
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Thanks Cat man do, I started but in the end couldn''t be bothered to take apart the erroneous arguments I would add, in Singapore and Malaysia, along with other places, the temperature is consistently 28 to 30 degree Centigrade with 95 to 100% humidity. Even market traders have highly efficient domestic fridges and freezers. I've never yet had a warm Tiger Beer there

P.
Yep, certainly gets toasty up there, which is why for me, large refrigeration full of icy cold beers is very very...very high on the necessity list.

I also have the roof extending to past the back cockpit with a shade structure above that so as the roof gets minimal direct sunlight.

The shade structure will be capable of collecting rain and I will have a watermaker so as to have cool showers when required in my larger than normal shower area for 2 ( 1.4m x 2.4m)

Four front windows (900 x 900mm) will open directing full flow air into the living areas with 8 @ 500 x 500mm deck hatches directing flow into hulls and berths like on the below picture (not my boat)


This boat has been 10 plus years in the gestation period with many years of observation on what cruisers have that works, what they actually need and what they lust for.

Sacrifices have been made, but many benefits have been added, that arguably I would have not been able to attain if going the sailing route.

I am not saying that the household fridge is the be all and end all, I am disappointed at the lack of insulation for example, but I am also disappointed at the lack of foam on store bought marine fridges and horrified at the $$ demanded for a custom build.

I am prepared to give this a go, if it works well, result, if not I have a large unused area of the boat where a custom built 6 inch foamed fridge freezer can be built later.

Cant wait to get back up there again, I am still a couple of years from getting the boat there, but will be going up for seven weeks in June next year and yes, there will be cold tigers involved.
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Old 11-12-2009, 02:35   #37
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Waaaay Outback

CatManDoDo,

You've been doing the walkaround in the heat too long, Mate. You appear to have a computer hooked up to the Internet (or you're doing a good job summoning the spirits through a rum bottle) so you should be able to google the price of a marine fridge. I see Isotherm top and bottom fridge/freezer advertised for $1400 US and I don't see a single $5000 fridge out there. You apparently DO know how to 'google' since your posts are followed by a string of google ads. With 2300+ posts, those posts must generate some tidy revenue - maybe enough to buy a massive home fridge and put it on a houseboat with pontoons. Are you selling Samsung refrigerators as well?

89 degrees inside the house with no AC. Sounds like fun.

When experts advise 4 inches of insulation, they are talking about building from insulation available at Home Depot. Marine refrigerators use special insulating foam injected under pressure and one inch gives nearly the same insulation as 4 inches of stuff you cut and wrap around a box in a boat. Yes, building your own refrigerator will cost $5,000 and you will most likely spend decades of your life building a boat rather than sailing. Almost all sailboat builders and all powerboat builders don't do the top loading, custom built, "ice box" anymore because they are too expensive and cumbersome. Professional boat builders put in a door or drawer style marine refrigerator facing fore or aft or manufactured top-loading marine refrigerator box that they drop in under a countertop.

Cruisers Forum - to me that sounds like water sailing">blue water sailing - not tied up to the outside pier because your floating platform won't fit into a boat slip or it costs too much for fuel to go anywhere. Sailing takes you from Hawaii to Brisbane for $1 worth of fuel. With a power cat, you pay $20,000 to load your boat on a ship and have it delivered to the next sheltered dock.

I've done the Cats - they supply superior living space in the deck area but the pontoons are cramped and limited and they wallow in anything over 4 foot seas. With a sailing cat, when one side digs into a wave, the boat shudders to a halt and you hope the hulls don't break apart.

Sailing is unparalled in a monohull. There is nothing like twenty knot winds ripping at the rigging, full sail straining as the boat lifts and surges through the seas, rail under with glowing phosphorus sea life blasting by, porpoises gliding effortlessly beside the boat rolling an eye up to look at those sails singing in the wind and the Southern Cross hanging so low over your head, you can touch it. You go below and the marine fridge is silently cranking out the cold, no generator grinding out fumes, and the fridges and freezers running for weeks without engine assist. You pull out a Carona, cold and frosty, pop the top, slide in a slice of lime from there in the vegetable crisper, grab a sandwitch and settle behind the red glow of the compass as you take command of the graveyard watch.

My friend CatMan, at that time, you know with great certainty that there is God. Praise Him for inventing the Marine Refrigerator.
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:32   #38
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Getting back on the OP's intended track (I'm also in the market for a fridge btw), are there any other engineering differences apart from the 110/220V input and the lacking catch for the doors?

Does the compressor take AC/DC direct, or is it somehow transformed down inside the apparatus?
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Old 11-12-2009, 04:22   #39
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So some idiot is trying to drag a discussion about fridges into a mono vs multi debate. Pathetic. You have to wonder why some mono people constantly have to tell us their boats are better. Trying to convince themselves maybe?

Anyway, I know people who have been using domestic freezers as fridges for years on their boat (a cat as it happens) without problems. It's what gave me the idea in the first place.

You can buy a 100 litre domestic freezer for less than $200. If it craps out in a few years, you take it to the tip and buy a new one. With a boat fridge you'd have to pay someone to fix it. Which would cost the earth.

The domestic version will use more power, but with the money you saved buying it, you can add more solar panels, or a wind generator. Both of which will almost certainly outlive a marine fridge.
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Old 11-12-2009, 04:28   #40
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Originally Posted by bstreep View Post
Most everyone missed a simple point. MOST marine refrigerators use seawater to cool. 1) it's much more efficient, and 2) if you use a traditional refrigeration, you are dumping that hot exchanged air into your living area. Good luck with that.
The heat that was in the fridge originally came from the living area, so you're no worse off.
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Old 11-12-2009, 05:08   #41
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if I could afford it, I'd settle for this Nordhavn - Power That Is Oceans Apart, their new motor sailor that sails well, it comes with domestic freezer and fridge

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Old 13-12-2009, 02:27   #42
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Originally Posted by 7SeasSailor View Post
CatManDoDo,Blah, blah blah blah
I see Isotherm top and bottom fridge/freezer advertised for $1400 US and I don't see a single $5000 fridge out there.
Fantastic, Perhaps you can sent me a link to this fridge so I can buy it.
Just make sure it comparable to what I want and was linking to and has at least 200 plus litres or fridge and around 60 at least or freezer and is in Australia.

Quote:
You apparently DO know how to 'google' since your posts are followed by a string of google ads. With 2300+ posts, those posts must generate some tidy revenue - Blah blah blah
Nothing to do with me, Owners of this forum get revenue, not me.
Quote:
Are you selling Samsung refrigerators as well?
I was going to ask you the same question, are you selling Marine, specifically isotherm?

Quote:
89 degrees inside the house with no AC. Sounds like fun.
Fun enough, Its only for a few hours a day, for a few weeks of the year.
They breed us tough in Australia.

Quote:
When experts advise 4 inches of insulation, they are talking about building from insulation available at Home Depot.Marine refrigerators use special insulating foam injected under pressure and one inch gives nearly the same insulation as 4 inches of stuff you cut and wrap around a box in a boat.
We dont have home depot here and I call bullshit on your comments again, so perhaps this time you will back up your comment with links stating that the R value of one inch of foam is equivalent to 4 inches of Dow blue or similar

Quote:
Yes, building your own refrigerator will cost $5,000
Thats the cost of a proffesional build, but still not as large as I need
Quote:
and you will most likely spend decades of your life building a boat rather than sailing.
You clearly have no idea, or are a very slow and lazy worker

Quote:
Almost all sailboat builders and all powerboat builders don't do the top loading, custom built, "ice box" anymore because they are too expensive and cumbersome. Professional boat builders put in a door or drawer style marine refrigerator facing fore or aft or manufactured top-loading marine refrigerator box that they drop in under a countertop.
because its easy and cheap for them, but they aren't large enough and usually only any good for daysailers and weekend warriors, so I'd imagine they suit you just fine.

Quote:
Cruisers Forum - to me that sounds like blue water sailing - not tied up to the outside pier because your floating platform won't fit into a boat slip
Plenty of berths here for it and OS, only seems to be an issue in your part of the world and anyway, who wants to be in a marina berth?

Quote:
or it costs too much for fuel to go anywhere. Sailing takes you from Hawaii to Brisbane for $1 worth of fuel.
Dont forget the initial $70k for rig, sails and deck hardware and dont forget to deduct for wear and tear while using them and also dont forget that that you'll still need to buy those motors that I am using on top of the cost of that rig and sails and you'll probably still motor some.
Quote:
With a power cat, you pay $20,000 to load your boat on a ship and have it delivered to the next sheltered dock.
4,702 miles, I dare say I can bring it in on my own bottom for a whole lot less, but if you cant afford to play the game, stay at home.

Quote:
I've done the Cats - they supply superior living space in the deck area but the pontoons are cramped and limited
Sounds like you had the wrong boat, my hulls are 8 feet wide at shoulder height
Quote:
and they wallow in anything over 4 foot seas. With a sailing cat, when one side digs into a wave, the boat shudders to a halt and you hope the hulls don't break apart.
Is this one of these vessels you built that took you forever?
Sounds like you sailed a piece of **** or didnt know how to sail, but I will not have these sort of issues on a powercat

Quote:
Sailing is unparalled in a monohull. There is nothing like twenty knot winds ripping at the rigging, full sail straining as the boat lifts and surges through the seas, rail under with glowing phosphorus sea life blasting by, porpoises gliding effortlessly beside the boat rolling an eye up to look at those sails singing in the wind and the Southern Cross hanging so low over your head, you can touch it.
Good for you, have fun, I have had all of that without the leaning over and spilling of drinks.
Quote:
You go below and the marine fridge is silently cranking out the cold, no generator grinding out fumes,
What sort of idiot has exhaust fumes venting below?
Perhaps the same sort of idiot that seems to push a cat hard continually stuffing it's bows in on every wave until it shudders to a halt?
Quote:
and the fridges and freezers running for weeks without engine assist. You pull out a Carona, cold and frosty, pop the top, slide in a slice of lime from there in the vegetable crisper, grab a sandwitch and settle behind the red glow of the compass as you take command of the graveyard watch.
Sound good.

Quote:
My friend CatMan, at that time, you know with great certainty that there is God. Praise Him for inventing the Marine Refrigerator.
Make sure you send me that link for the 200 +60 marine fridge freezer for $1400 for us thanks
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Old 14-12-2009, 07:37   #43
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I've got two top loading 7 cu ft freezers from Sam's at $197 each and a 3.2 cu ft refer at $132. One freezer is on the 1000 watt inverter all the time and keeps a months worth of stuff frozen at 0 degrees. The other freezer I use as a refrigerator and keep it at about 40 degrees. The front loading refer is useless. I run my gen set 2 hrs a day, less if I'm underway as my engine keeps the batteries fully charged. I use two banks of two 8Ds usually connected and never go below 12.5 V. These units need to be free standing with air circulation on all sides and are big and ugly, but then so am I.
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Old 15-12-2009, 06:45   #44
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So to answer the OP's question I think it looks like you can use a domestic fridge/freezer. Though apparently it's much more controversial than the mono/multi debate and is a topic best avoided in polite company...
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Old 24-12-2009, 22:53   #45
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I think it would be a good idea for one of the sailing magazines to compare marine dc fridges to domestic fridges. I have suggested this before.

If you a really interested in energy efficiency then your fridge must be top loading.

In Europe, a good quality, domestic, energy efficient fridge uses very little power and keeps cold for a long time.
These companies have a lot of money to spend on research. The market for these energy efficient fridges is very competitive.

If you put one of these on your boat and couple it to a 92% efficient inverter it will give you the following advantages...

Similar amp draw to a dc marine fridge (I actually suspect less amps even including the losses through the inverter)
Generally cheaper than a dc marine fridge
If it stops working, just buy a new one in the nearest town.

I know that many people do not want to hear that a domestic fridge, run through an inverter can compete with the expensive marine dc fridges (I'm not talking custom made inbuilt marine fridges, keel cooling etc, just off the shelf ones).

And so thats why I think it would make a very interesting boating article for the magazines... any editors out there reading this.
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