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Old 18-01-2017, 17:17   #1
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Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

So I am in the market for a 30 or 30-ish "new to me" boat. Looked at a Catalina 30 recently, on the hard for the winter. The boat is not shrinkwrapped nor covered.

It had rained recently, and I found drips near the v-berth hatch and qtr-berth operable vent/port. Nothing major, but both will need repair or replacement.

What I was shocked to see was a bilge nearly full to the cabin deck... mostly frozen. It would not have taken much more water to have overflowed the bilge. We pumped the liquid water out using the manual pump, but still left behind quite a bit of ice.

Is this normal, for a boat stored in this manner? There is NO evidence of standing water anywhere, and the companionway hatch had a poly tarp over it clearly attempting to minimize water intrusion at that point.....

Input greatly appreciated!
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Old 18-01-2017, 17:36   #2
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

If the mast is keel stepped you'll get a bit of water in the bilge through the mast, typically this comes from the mast head and any openings in the mast such as halyard exits etc. some boats have garboard plugs (I don't as I don't like them. ) to allow water to drain. If the mast boot is old it may be leaking there too, but a fill bilge of water typically means more leaks. my Morgan Out island has a massive bilge and only have an inch of water in it right now from the whole winter.
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Old 18-01-2017, 18:16   #3
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

I recently went to check my boat and it is a keel stepped mast. It was dry as a bone when I left it this fall and it was 1/2 full of ice when I arrived this week. I tried to remove some with very little luck so added more antifreeze. This spring, I will install a garboard plug that I can remove every fall to ensure no water accumulation in the bilge whatsoever in the future.

This is the first year with this boat so I am learning. I left the mast up for the winter so assume this is where the water is coming from.
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Old 18-01-2017, 18:37   #4
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

Similar problem, drove me nuts, took years to find. Long story short, if she layer just so melting snow would suck into the engine control cable and get routed so that it dropped next to the engine. One year it was damn near to the floor boards. New engine control console is mounted inside.
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Old 18-01-2017, 20:08   #5
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

Ice can do a lot of structural damage. Also many cases of saturated FRP layup and osmosis start from the inside.

If it was up that high I'd advise you to pass on that boat. There may be hidden damage. There are lots of boats. They must be covered and/or kept ice free in winter. It's not an optional thing.

If just a little puddle of ice that's got room to expand, that's quite different from ice that fills a space and needs to push apart its boundaries. Also engines and plumbing must be properly winterized.
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Old 19-01-2017, 05:01   #6
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

Our boat is keel stepped, and our club requires the mast to be unstepped each off season. We put a plastic bucket (weighed down with a rock to keep it from blowing away) over the mast hole to keep the rain out until she's shrink wrapped. Our bilge stays dry as a bone that way.
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Old 19-01-2017, 06:42   #7
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

Many old boats will fill their bilges up with water on the hard if left unattended unless they have a removable plug or the (auto) bilge pump is left on and the battery maintained

The ice is another issue all together.
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Old 19-01-2017, 06:57   #8
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

Find another boat!

You can be certain that if an owner doesn't cover his boat in winter, he is likely negligent about any other common sense maintenance work.

A bilge full of water is a secondary concern to the greater damage likely on deck around fittings, hardware, etc...
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Old 19-01-2017, 07:07   #9
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen Stubbs View Post
S The boat is not shrinkwrapped nor covered.

It had rained recently, and I found drips near the v-berth hatch and qtr-berth operable vent/port.

What I was shocked to see was a bilge nearly full to the cabin deck... mostly frozen.
The boat is stored during the winter months in a region that gets, what sounds like, hard freezes and thaws. They boat is uncovered. snow and rain will collect on the boat. Snow will melt, then work its way into every nook and cranny. Then it will freeze and expand. Repeated cycles will break the seals on deck stanchions, cleats, rub rails, hawse pipes and deck hatches.

Then when it rains or the snow melts, water will begin to ingress.

That is a lot of water in the bilge. If filled to the cabin sole, when it freezes, where does it expand??

I would avoid this boat IMHO.
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Old 19-01-2017, 08:31   #10
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

Owen Stubbs:
Another possibility is the owner did not pump out the bilge prior to moving her onto the hard and majority of water is prior to the rain/snow from a stuffing box that needs attention. I previously owned a Catalina 27 with no bilge pump requiring me to periodically use a hand pump to clear the bilge. Still would agree w/ previous comments ,in that, if owner is not diligent enough to at least cover the boat w/ a tarp, then move on. Many Catalina 30's out there.
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Old 19-01-2017, 08:51   #11
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

It does happen if the boat is left unattended. Companionways leak in heavy rain, leaks at the mast etc occur. I've seen boats heavily damaged from filling with water on the hard. A garboard drain is a good idea if leaving a boat unattended.
I would be a bit worried about buying that boat. It may have several leaks elsewhere or water intrusion in the deck etc. Wet wood under the floor. I don't believe a Cat 30 has a keel stepped mast...?
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Old 19-01-2017, 09:17   #12
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
It does happen if the boat is left unattended. Companionways leak in heavy rain, leaks at the mast etc occur. I've seen boats heavily damaged from filling with water on the hard. A garboard drain is a good idea if leaving a boat unattended.
I would be a bit worried about buying that boat. It may have several leaks elsewhere or water intrusion in the deck etc. Wet wood under the floor. I don't believe a Cat 30 has a keel stepped mast...?
The major causes for significant (uncovered boat) water ingress:

1. Keel stepped mast deck entry. (Unstep the mast, and cover with a shallow bucket with a brick on it.

2. Chain plates. (Run a bed of Mono around and over them, and fix properly in the spring).

3. Deck and cockpit drains. (Check for deteriorated hoses and loose or cracked fittings.)

There are other potential sources, but these are the 3 main ones.

In future cover your boat for the winter (as mine sits exposed because I was too busy covering all my customers this year).

Yes, freeze / thaw cycles can do some damage, but that alone is no reason to pass on a boat. If there is no damage to decks, interior teak, chain plate connections, or upholstery, it is most likely merely a nuisance that can easily be solved by proper maintenance and cover the boat from here on.
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Old 19-01-2017, 11:21   #13
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

If ice is forming in the bilge it must fairly cold. Condensation can form on ports, hatches
and the hull sides, you will get a lot of build up in the bilge. You may have some leaks but
cold can be really problematic
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Old 19-01-2017, 13:49   #14
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
Ice can do a lot of structural damage. Also many cases of saturated FRP layup and osmosis start from the inside.

If it was up that high I'd advise you to pass on that boat. There may be hidden damage. There are lots of boats. They must be covered and/or kept ice free in winter. It's not an optional thing.

If just a little puddle of ice that's got room to expand, that's quite different from ice that fills a space and needs to push apart its boundaries. Also engines and plumbing must be properly winterized.
Coming from the Great White North, and servicing boats for a living, in my experience, about 50% of boats get shrink wrap or custom covered for the winter. Higher for above 30ft LOA, lower for less.

At least 70% of boats that are not custom covered, or shrink-wrapped, are gonna have some degree of ice in the bilge.

Of those that are properly covered, at least 30% are gonna have ice in the bilge.

Unless one will only consider boats currently in pristine condition, to overlook a boat solely because there is ice in the bilge, would be a mistake IMHO.

Ice in the bilge may be a blessing. It looks really bad, and the owner may be willing to take an offer below actual fair value for condition, because of it.

If the ingress has been via a bad deck or cockpit drain hose, has gone straight to the bilge without causing any secondary damage, the fix is likely a few bucks worth of hose, an hour, and Bob's yer uncle. If one can get it 10% less than normal because of this alone, that's a great deal.

A depth of ice in the bilge doesn't really concern me. How the water got there does. If it is through deck fittings that have resulted in rotted core and damaged interior teak, that can cost thousands and may very well be reason to look elsewhere.

Every outdoor swimming pool in freezing climates, has ice in it. Sometimes it may damage a cover, or vinyl liner, but the pool itself is just fine (with an adequate expansion take up device in the pool, like a couple of empty Clorox bottles).

A bilge is not much different. A fibreglass pan filled with a few inches of water that then freezes, is no issue. Now if water migrated into a spot between 2 surfaces, where expanded and broke something when it froze, that's a problem.

Even a deep unlined bilge, filled with 2 feet of water that freezes, is not necessarily a problem.

Anywhere water may enter or collect calls for scrutiny. Whether there is water or ice there right now, it really makes little difference.

An owner may have invested in a custom cover or shrink wrap because the vessel DOES leak like a sieve, and there is currently no water in the bilge because it was all pumped out after the cover went on. Meanwhile, every boating season for the last 20 years, water and rot has been spreading through the deck core, but the bilge is ice free in the winter.
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Old 19-01-2017, 15:33   #15
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Re: Bilge water amount during winter hard storage

I've had several boats, all deck stepped masts, and I had the same problem...no known leaks but the bilge would fill right up to the deckboards every winter.

I never figured it out, and it seems most of my friends had the same issue. My guess is condensation. OR it could be leaks...when sailing the keel HANGS from the hull, but on the hard, the keel pushes UP on the hull. The whole hull bends slightly. Especially if you pull the mast, since the rigging keeps the hull in tension all the time. Remove the rigging and the whole boat will sag a little bit.

Maybe its snow blowing in the vents, or rain getting in someplace, or some sort of greenhouse effect with the sun pouring in the windows and heating up the air below and condensing on the cold hull....too many possibilities. However, never seemed to do any damage. I would put lots of plumbing antifreeze in the bilge, and be sure to run some through the bilge pumps (man and auto) to protect them too.
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