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Old 15-11-2007, 06:20   #16
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Speaking of bilge pumps... There are two basic needs for them as far as I can tell. One being small amounts of water which get into the bilge from leaks and so forth, even a busted water tank. These are not serious hazards usually, but water sloshing around does present some problems. A small pump can deal with that.

The second need is the more catastrophic failure like a busted hose connected to a thru hull below the water line or a hull breach etc (ICK), or perhaps a huge wave pouring hundreds of gallons into the cabin. This needs so serious pumping and batt power, or large capacity hand operated pumps.

So what is your approach to these two needs? A large robust electric? A small electric with a standby large electric and or hand pump? Something else?
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Old 15-11-2007, 08:33   #17
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I'd absolutely caution you about using the rule float switches in any case. In the 3 years, I have replaced them a total of 5 of them.(I have 6 switches). I had two left and they will be removed this weekend and replaced with electronic switches. Seems they only last about 1 year on my boat.

Have you tested your's lately?
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Old 15-11-2007, 08:49   #18
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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
I see I didn't read your post very carefully. Never mind about whether you tested it.

Here's the link for Ericson

ESP

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That thing looks awesome, simple, and cheap. I'm glad I made this thread, because that pump right there and a functioning engine could probably keep a boat floating with a massive hole in it for a while. They said they have a video of a 10" diameter hole? Jeeze. I've got the space to mount one too, suprisingly enough.
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Old 15-11-2007, 09:00   #19
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Speaking of bilge pumps... There are two basic needs for them as far as I can tell. One being small amounts of water which get into the bilge from leaks and so forth, even a busted water tank. These are not serious hazards usually, but water sloshing around does present some problems. A small pump can deal with that.

The second need is the more catastrophic failure like a busted hose connected to a thru hull below the water line or a hull breach etc (ICK), or perhaps a huge wave pouring hundreds of gallons into the cabin. This needs so serious pumping and batt power, or large capacity hand operated pumps.

So what is your approach to these two needs? A large robust electric? A small electric with a standby large electric and or hand pump? Something else?
I got some response to this from a thread I started at the beginning of the year.

Another Bilge Pump Thread

I guess some people think that the guy in the links below is not quite in center field, but he thinks sailboaters have their heads in the sand about pumping requirements.

ALL ABOUT BILGE PUMPS - Boats, Yachts Maintenance and Troubleshooting

How to Prevent Your Boat from Sinking: Boats and Yachts Maintenance and Troubleshooting :

John
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Old 15-11-2007, 09:28   #20
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I see I didn't read your post very carefully. Never mind about whether you tested it.

Here's the link for Ericson

ESP

John
That's an interesting pump. I've never seen that before. I'm not sure how practical it would be on a pleasure craft of any sort.

If I understand the thing correctly, the propshaft must be turning for that pump to work, unless you have a shaft between the engine and gear-box. It's one thing to keep your engine running during a cotastrophe but it is something entirely different to keep the vessel under way while it is taking on water.

It seems to me that trying to deal with water intrussion would keep a skipper's hands pretty full and he would not want to have to be concerned about the vessel hitting something.

In some instances of solving the water intrussion problem, a crew member may be required to go over the side to stuff something in a hole. You sure wouldn't want to be under way while that was going on.

There are a lot of engine driven pumps on the market.
West Marine: Pedestal-Mount Bronze Pump, 11.3gpm, 1/2IPT, 5/8" Diam Product Display
I had one of these mounted on my aux. diesel engine that I had in my engine room. It made a great wash down pump and I had a valve in the plumbing to switch it to a bilge pump for emergencies. There are even bigger ones available.

They can hande huge amounts of water and they are usually belt driven so that the engine can be running without having the prop turning.
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Old 15-11-2007, 09:40   #21
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With the engine running you can deliver a lot of amps to an electrical pump. So you could drive a larger 12 volt pump for those times when the water was really coming in. A Rule 3700 would draw 15 amps and pump 61 GPM.

A Titan Whale hand pump will deliver 28 GPM. These pumps operate quite well and act as a good backup. For offshore you would want one of these too.
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Old 15-11-2007, 10:41   #22
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Originally Posted by Kanani View Post
That's an interesting pump. I've never seen that before. I'm not sure how practical it would be on a pleasure craft of any sort.

If I understand the thing correctly, the propshaft must be turning for that pump to work, unless you have a shaft between the engine and gear-box. It's one thing to keep your engine running during a cotastrophe but it is something entirely different to keep the vessel under way while it is taking on water.

It seems to me that trying to deal with water intrussion would keep a skipper's hands pretty full and he would not want to have to be concerned about the vessel hitting something.

In some instances of solving the water intrussion problem, a crew member may be required to go over the side to stuff something in a hole. You sure wouldn't want to be under way while that was going on.

There are a lot of engine driven pumps on the market.
West Marine: Pedestal-Mount Bronze Pump, 11.3gpm, 1/2IPT, 5/8" Diam Product Display
I had one of these mounted on my aux. diesel engine that I had in my engine room. It made a great wash down pump and I had a valve in the plumbing to switch it to a bilge pump for emergencies. There are even bigger ones available.

They can hande huge amounts of water and they are usually belt driven so that the engine can be running without having the prop turning.
Yeah, being in gear was one of my concerns with the Ericson pump, but their smallest pump puts out a little less than 400 gpm (per minute, not hour) at 1500 rpm. The largest impellor pump I have found is about 90 gpm, and impeller pumps you have to worry more about debris and running dry.

John


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Old 15-11-2007, 22:40   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strygaldwir View Post
I'd absolutely caution you about using the rule float switches in any case. In the 3 years, I have replaced them a total of 5 of them.(I have 6 switches). I had two left and they will be removed this weekend and replaced with electronic switches. Seems they only last about 1 year on my boat.

Have you tested your's lately?
Strygaldwir,

Just out of interest. What fails on those float switches, and what do you think makes them fail?

Thanks,
Andreas
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Old 16-11-2007, 04:42   #24
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Just out of interest. What fails on those float switches, and what do you think makes them fail?
They sit in some amount of salt water almost all the time and have moving parts that can accumulate bilge crud. You will see most companies now offer a "premium switch" that has a better design than the old switches. Quite a few variations. The newer sensors have no moving parts. I suspect it will be soon be impossible to buy one of the really old style switches.
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Old 16-11-2007, 05:00   #25
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Excerpted from David Pascoe’s excellent article “ALL ABOUT BILGE PUMPS”
ALL ABOUT BILGE PUMPS - Boats, Yachts Maintenance and Troubleshooting

”... most switches fail not because of lousy switch design, but because of thoughtless installation or lack of maintenance. These are not self-cleaning devices. There are four things you need to consider for reliable switch installation:
(1) no debris in bilge,
(2) nothing should interfere with the rise and fall of the switch,
(3) it must be wired properly, and
(4) it must be protected from the surge of water in the bilge ...
... It would be my guess that well over 50% of all pump failures are caused by water getting at wire connections and causing corrosion and high resistance. People just don't realize that corroded connections cause a power loss that can either cause the pump to burn up, or the wire connections to overheat and terminate all power flow. That's why its imperative that the wire connections be made as high above the bilge as possible, and that they be protected against getting wet from any other source, like water dripping from above ...”
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Old 16-11-2007, 05:34   #26
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Big Capacity

I recently replaced my original bilge pump with a Rule 3700 heavy duty model. Compared to the old Attwood 2500 or whatever it was, this thing humps out water like a fire pump. I have a 1.5" smooth bore discharge hose all the way through to the transom thru-hull. Note that the corrugated swimming pool hose, though cheaper, will significantly drop the performance of a centrifugal pump such as this.

The only time this beast ever comes on is when I'm washing the bilge with fresh water. When it does come on, you don't want to be anywhere near the stern because you are going to get seriously wet. After running a garden hose into the bilge with no nozzle for 10 minutes, I'm able to pump all that water out in less than 30 seconds. So far, I am very impressed with this new pump.

I have an alarm and a backup manual pump at the helm as well as a secondary automatic diaphragm pump. I feel pretty good with this setup.
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Old 16-11-2007, 06:16   #27
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We at African Cats Test every item before installing it standard into each boat or in this case bilge.
We are all for safety so in each bilge ( we have 3 enclosed bilges to each hull)
we place 2 x attwood 750 automatic bilge pump , one of these 2 bilge pumps is connected to the service battery set and the other that is placed slightly higher , 1 inch and is connected to the starting battery circuit. we believe in redundancy.
we have done away with hand bilge pumps altogether because the capacity is very limited and have you tried pumping one of these pums for an hour ?
All wiring in our cats is soldered and a heat shrink around the soldering. most electrical failures happen because of moist in the wiring .
All wiring is lifted at least 12 inches from the bottom of the bilges for extra security
The tubing we use is smooth on the inside because the curled type decreses capacity with well over 50 % . On the engines is it is a diesel version we have a 3 way valve on the water inlet and we can move this valve so it can in an emergency take water from the bilge, if it the electric version we do the same with the generator , a 3 way valve on the inlet water line and the secondary inlet is in the bottom of the bilge. in case of a bilge pump failure there is at least another backup.
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Old 16-11-2007, 09:48   #28
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We at African Cats Test every item before installing it standard into each boat or in this case bilge.
We are all for safety so in each bilge ( we have 3 enclosed bilges to each hull)
we place 2 x attwood 750 automatic bilge pump , one of these 2 bilge pumps is connected to the service battery set and the other that is placed slightly higher , 1 inch and is connected to the starting battery circuit. we believe in redundancy.
we have done away with hand bilge pumps altogether because the capacity is very limited and have you tried pumping one of these pums for an hour ?
All wiring in our cats is soldered and a heat shrink around the soldering. most electrical failures happen because of moist in the wiring .
All wiring is lifted at least 12 inches from the bottom of the bilges for extra security
The tubing we use is smooth on the inside because the curled type decreses capacity with well over 50 % . On the engines is it is a diesel version we have a 3 way valve on the water inlet and we can move this valve so it can in an emergency take water from the bilge, if it the electric version we do the same with the generator , a 3 way valve on the inlet water line and the secondary inlet is in the bottom of the bilge. in case of a bilge pump failure there is at least another backup.
This is an axcellent set-up. There 1 thing that I would do differently.

I would never go to sea without a (at least 1, 2 on a cat) large gusher hand pump. It is true that pumping those things can get over whelming but the alternative may be sinking because you can't carry buckets fast enough. Whenever I made yacht deliveries, that was 1 of the things that I insisted on.

Putting too much faith in electronics can cause a skipper a multitude of problems. I had 4 - 8D gell-cell batteries on my boat and they were contained in 2 separate heavily built battery boxes so that if the boat rolled, the batteries would be unharmed. You know what......stuff happens out at sea and I still don't trust electronics for the safety of my vessel & crew.
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Old 16-11-2007, 13:06   #29
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Quote:
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This is an axcellent set-up. There 1 thing that I would do differently.

I would never go to sea without a (at least 1, 2 on a cat) large gusher hand pump. It is true that pumping those things can get over whelming but the alternative may be sinking because you can't carry buckets fast enough. Whenever I made yacht deliveries, that was 1 of the things that I insisted on.

Putting too much faith in electronics can cause a skipper a multitude of problems. I had 4 - 8D gell-cell batteries on my boat and they were contained in 2 separate heavily built battery boxes so that if the boat rolled, the batteries would be unharmed. You know what......stuff happens out at sea and I still don't trust electronics for the safety of my vessel & crew.
We have one large gusher hand pump on the boat but the nice thing on a FastCat is they are really unsinkable with well over 200 % buoyancy build in. The hand pump is for ease of mind and maybe getting a bit of water out of one of the many enclosed buoyancy chambers but you are right never leave home without it , on sea much better than a american express card
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Old 16-11-2007, 16:49   #30
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engine driven pump

I'll agree with the previous poster on the recommendation of an engine driven high capacity pump with a valve that offers either deckwash or firehose duties , and emergency bilge pump ability. If you have the room and an available pulley it is silly not to put one in. You can use it for other purposes until you REALLY need it at which time (because you've used and maintained it) you will be reasonably assured that it will work. If you hit something or something hits you, hard enough to hole you're boat, you're going to want to be able to manuever under power under any circumstances. To have the pump available will be a god send. Electricity can and will fail, but with clean fuel and air, a diesel once started will run under amazingly adverse conditions. There's some film around somewhere of some army vehicles with snorkels crossing streams etc. completely under water and i'm not talking subs here heheh.
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