Best Fresh Water Pump

[model 10]

I have never heard of a cruiser who uses fresh water to wash his anchor chain. It almost seems other worldly. Most of my chain wash water goes ovbd before the mud gets to the deck so you will be spraying fresh water right into the ocean. Seems weird.

[wrwakefield]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Flow rate without a stated pressure isn't the whole story, often pumps are rated with no head pressure, so a 3 GPM pump if you make it hold 40 PSI of pressure may deliver much less than rated flow.
But, she desires high pressure and high flow rate to wash her hair, and we will have a 30 GPH or maybe larger water maker, and we will use quite a lot of water, it another one of those luxuries I want to have. I intend to rinse the chain off as it goes into the locker and keep the deck as salt free as is reasonable, and I want to try to do all of this with one pump and not have a separate washdown pump, and I don't see why it wouldn't work? Probably install a couple of recessed faucets and use a 25' coiled hose.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Hi A64-

Here are the specs on the Jabsco 31750 pump I have, and the next larger model:

Model Amp Draw Max Flow Sensor Cut-Out Inlet
Number Voltage (24V) Fuse GPM (LPM) Pressure Presssure Strainer
31750-0000 12-24V DC 8.0 (4.0) 15A 3.7 (13.5) 25 psi (1.7 bar) 35 psi (2.8 bar) Yes
31755-0000 12-24V DC 12.0 (6.0) 15A 4.5 (16.3) 30 psi (2.1 bar) 40 psi (2.8 bar) Yes

In my list of water drawing appliances, I forgot to include 2 deck washdown hoses [both switchable between fresh and raw water. I rinse the anchor chain with raw water, then rinse the pile in fresh as my watermaker produces 12 gph.]

The smaller pump we have seemingly overpowers the oxygenating shower head we use. [I turn the flow rate down in the shower so it doesn't rinse the entire head...]

In case this is helpful.

Cheers!

Bill

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Flow rate without a stated pressure isn't the whole story, often pumps are rated with no head pressure, so a 3 GPM pump if you make it hold 40 PSI of pressure may deliver much less than rated flow.
But, she desires high pressure and high flow rate to wash her hair, and we will have a 30 GPH or maybe larger water maker, and we will use quite a lot of water, it another one of those luxuries I want to have. I intend to rinse the chain off as it goes into the locker and keep the deck as salt free as is reasonable, and I want to try to do all of this with one pump and not have a separate washdown pump, and I don't see why it wouldn't work? Probably install a couple of recessed faucets and use a 25' coiled hose.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

I understand. I never even think of the freshwater as realistic for washdown system since we don't have a watermaker and we're in drought-ridden California right now. Our deck washdown system is salt water and we use it--as you intend--to wash the anchor chain as it comes in so the locker is clean. We use it for washing down everything else, too. We don't worry about keeping the deck salt free. We wash down as we please with salt water, and the only worries are to make sure we keep the shrouds cleaned/wiped down and salt-free but we those wipe-downs after long passages and before passages as we're inspecting the rig.

I didn't know you weren't already living aboard. If you plan to have a watermaker with sufficient capacity, you'll be able to work with high water useage for sure. High flow rate showers are certainly nice but far less than 6gpm is realistic. Your wife's hair as THE reason just is not what I'd think of as why you'd upgrade your system. You will probably end up with something like the Jabsco pump we have on the salt water side. It works well even at low flow rates but it is NOISY. Like another poster here, we have a lot of PEX between the pump location and distribution points: the galley sink (has a salt water faucet) or the anchor washdown--both can be set to tiny flow rates that remain smooth but likely because of the capacity of the system as a whole. I hope you manage to install whatever you get in a soundproof area/box unlike ours. If our ancient Groco on the freshwater side ever dies, we'll put in an identical Jabsco there as well.

Fair winds,
Brenda

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by Guy

I have never heard of a cruiser who uses fresh water to wash his anchor chain. It almost seems other worldly. Most of my chain wash water goes ovbd before the mud gets to the deck so you will be spraying fresh water right into the ocean. Seems weird.

Yeah, I'm not sure how it would realistically work--especially if you anchor in muddy locations. We estimate our use is about 4gpm on the washdown when using the hose on the anchor chain. It's on just about constantly the whole time the chain is coming in. If we're in mud, that a minimum of 15 minutes -- sometimes more like 30 minutes of washing down if we've got a lot of chain out, the bottom is ooze, and we coming up thick on the chain. After the chain is in, then the foredeck person usually spends another 10 minutes or so cleaning the foredeck while we get underway. So we're talking about about 100 gallons of water more-or-less just to get the chain and foredeck clean.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Doesn't Whale still make one with variable flow called the IC Fresh?

Matt

They discontinued it. I think Whale bought another company, and that was probably one of their VSP products and it had issues like most others.

I don't know what the problem is with these types of pumps, but most companies have failed with them.

I don't ever want to go back to a regular pump and tank, so I hope the few remaining VSP's have solved whatever problems there are with them.

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Guy

I have never heard of a cruiser who uses fresh water to wash his anchor chain. It almost seems other worldly. Most of my chain wash water goes ovbd before the mud gets to the deck so you will be spraying fresh water right into the ocean. Seems weird.

I don't think anyone suggested using FW for anchor chain. Some of us suggested using it for deck wash down, but that is different.

We use SW for our chain as it is coming up, then I spray the chain pile and deck with FW (we have a 3-way valve right at the hose fitting so I can choose).

No way would I be spraying our decks with salt water. Salt water is insidious for moisture retention and mold and butt sores, and we do everything possible to keep it on the outside. Having salty decks would mean tracking it everywhere, sitting on it constantly, having dried salt blow in through hatches, having wet decks well above the dew point every evening/morning, etc.

Mark

[a64pilot]

I brought up rinsing the anchor chain with fresh water. I usually anchor in 10' of water or so and have maybe 50' of chain out. I could rinse it off with a gallon or two of water? I figure why not, I'm trying to keep corrosion down and possibly smell in the anchor locker although that has never been a problem yet, but I just spent real close to a grand on chain, so I want it to last as long as it can before re-galvanizing.
I'm not wasting water, just desalinating it and returning it back to the Ocean, I am probably wasting so fuel though, but think I'm going to be running the generator a couple times a week to charge batteries, why not make water, and if your making water, why not make a lot of water, IE a high volume water maker

We don't live aboard yet, just endlessly preparing to, and noise wise my Jabsco diaphragm pump I'm replacing isn't all that quiet, while I don't want a jackhammer, I sort of like hearing the pump, that way I'll hear it if a leak starts, maybe.

I found a good price on the one Nigel linked to and ordered it, I'll see how well it works.

Mark hit the nail on the head on why I want a high flow pump, it isn't all or nothing, a facet isn't like a light switch, but I want the pressure to not drop so much with flow, If you look up the specs of the RV pump Mark linked to, they are an honest Company, they actually give the flow rates vs pressure, something that I have not seen Marine pumps do, anyway at 40 PSI, that 5+ GPM pump will deliver around 1 GPM. I suspect that is very common for pumps, and I think by the time you run the water through manifold, lines and valves your 5 GPM goes way down too.
If I could get that 1.5 GPM at high pressure to the shower, I think we will be happy

[model 10]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I brought up rinsing the anchor chain with fresh water. I usually anchor in 10' of water or so and have maybe 50' of chain out. I could rinse it off with a gallon or two of water? I figure why not,

That makes me think of some anchorages early this year in Belize. We would often have 150' of chain totally caked in thick black mud. You had to wash each link and we have a nice pressure wash set up.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by colemj

I don't think anyone suggested using FW for anchor chain. Some of us suggested using it for deck wash down, but that is different.

We use SW for our chain as it is coming up, then I spray the chain pile and deck with FW (we have a 3-way valve right at the hose fitting so I can choose).

No way would I be spraying our decks with salt water. Salt water is insidious for moisture retention and mold and butt sores, and we do everything possible to keep it on the outside. Having salty decks would mean tracking it everywhere, sitting on it constantly, having dried salt blow in through hatches, having wet decks well above the dew point every evening/morning, etc.

Mark

Like you, I also had my doubts about using saltwater for deck wash down though many other experienced sailors seemed perfectly fine with it. When at the dock, we use a salt water wash down followed by a fresh water rinse using very little fresh water (more like a *mist*) but other times, not.

For chain washing, the ideal situation would be saltwater wash as we have it followed by a fine mist of fresh water onto the chain before it drops into the locker. In our case, it's not realistic to do this because of lack of fresh water and the geometry isn't right for it. Others, like the OP, may be able to pull it off nicely though.

Our chain goes directly from windlass down into the anchor locker--no pile on deck. What size chain do you use and how do you handle a couple hundred feet of chain once it's on deck? I cannot imagine dealing with a pile of our 1/2" chain at 3lb/ft on deck. We used to pile the chain on deck on our 30' boat, no problem, but with size things get more difficult.

When we use the secondary anchor (all rode) we do coil the rode into a big bin/bucket for first a saltwater soak/rinse and then a freshwater soak/rinse before it is stored below deck. If no freshwater available, the bin of rode gets stored on the foredeck or in the forecastle for when we come into a marina and can use freshwater on it.

Actively cruising and living aboard for 6 years we have not noted any of the problems that you worry about. Of course, we don't sit on decks wet with saltwater (try a cushion instead), the dried salt appears to stay outside the boat--pretty much sticks to things yes. If there is salt in the air, sure, it will end up below decks but we don't wash down the deck with open hatches.... We have huge amounts of varnished wood outside the boat and it typically looks beautiful without any indication of salt on it even though we're constantly washing it down with salt water. The only time the salt builds up is when we're underway for several days w/o stopping -- if it's windy and dry the boat will end up covered in salt crystals. A salt water wash gets rid of that sailing-related crusted on salt. Sure there's salt in the dried on film but it's not significant.

We do have some hard-and-fast rules about not sitting inside the boat in our outdoor foulies and common sense keeps one from plopping down in the main saloon when wet with salt water or even just rain water. The salt water washdown has little to do with these issues. We have a couple designated sitting spots in the charthouse for foulie sitting. We have far less problems aboard with mold that most other boaters seem to have--many folks are always complaining about it and we rarely have any indications of mold--so I figure it's all good.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by Guy

That makes me think of some anchorages early this year in Belize. We would often have 150' of chain totally caked in thick black mud. You had to wash each link and we have a nice pressure wash set up.

Your experience is like many of ours. Each link having to be washed. The OP could set up a fresh water mister that rinses of the salt water right before the chain drops into the locker, that's be great. His main washdown would be salt water though. The reality is that the quantity of water needed for doing a good wash of the chain (if muddy) is pretty huge.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery

Our chain goes directly from windlass down into the anchor locker--no pile on deck. What size chain do you use and how do you handle a couple hundred feet of chain once it's on deck? I cannot imagine dealing with a pile of our 1/2" chain at 3lb/ft on deck. We used to pile the chain on deck on our 30' boat, no problem, but with size things get more difficult.

I didn't mean to imply that we pile our chain on deck. Our chain crosses 7-8' from the bow roller to the windlass and straight down into the anchor locker.

I rinse down the pile of chain in the anchor locker. The anchor locker has no connection to the interior of the boat and drains directly overboard.

Walking on our salty decks sure does track the salt around and into the boat for us. Including onto the cockpit cushions. And when we sit behind reefs in the trade winds, the salt gets into the cockpit and all over the dodger, bimini, frame, decks, etc.

A pilot house provides a good half-way house for trapping and containing this. Being a catamaran, our insides are very open to our outsides, and on the same level.

Mark

[jeremiason]

We have used the JABSCO SENSOR MAX VSD 17 Variable Speed Water Pump since 2006, with no troubles. Ours is 5 GPM and 30 PSI, which worked great for our uses.


You do not need an accumulator tank and the pump is really quiet.


Another nice thing about variables is that they use less energy than on demand pumps since they seldom run at maximum speed.

[mramoo]

Originally Posted by colemj

We love the variable speed pumps, but they have had some problems (search the internet). We went through 5 Shurflo VSP's - each time replaced free by Shurflo regardless of being out of warranty - until Shurflo simply stopped making them altogether.

Our current one is a Remco Aquajet: https://www.rvupgradestore.com/Aquaj.../aquajetrv.htm

It is made for RV applications and isn't marketed in the marine market at all, but I can't find one single thing about it that is a liability in a marine application. The pump body and all screws are stainless, and the rest is plastic and rubber. The wiring is tinned. Best thing is that the price is about half of what a "marine" pump costs.

We like it OK, but it isn't quite as slick as the Shurflo. It's pressure valve is finicky, such that it doesn't deliver really low flow rates smoothly. It seems to only be smooth at 1/3-1/2 flow on up to full flow. In other words, if you set a faucet at low flow, the pump cycles on and off and the flow increases and decreases with it. The Shurflo pump would never cycle - it would just run very slowly and smoothly. This isn't really a problem for us, though.

Jabsco also makes a VSP (at twice the price), but we don't have any experience with it.

Mark

Mark, This pump has an internal pressure relief valve, that controls the out-put volume. The reason than it is so fikicky at low volume, is that the internal passages that return the flow to the intake side of the pump are to small to handle the full volume the pump puts out.
This can be corrected by installing an external relief valve that is large enough to handle that volume. Then you would close the valve that is in the pump, and control the volume with the external valve.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Guy

That makes me think of some anchorages early this year in Belize. We would often have 150' of chain totally caked in thick black mud. You had to wash each link and we have a nice pressure wash set up.

I have a small, cheap 110V pressure washer, that would come into play then, but I have never had to use it for that, but I have in days past anchored in black, really strong sulfur smelling mud, I'm not putting that in my chain locker, it is connected the the fwd head with two doors with slats in the doors for airflow.
The cheap pressure washer is high pressure, maybe 1,000 PSI? but water flow is actually pretty low, remember this is a small, cheap one.

This one Amazon.com : AR Blue Clean AR118 1, 500 PSI 1.5 GPM Hand Carry Electric Pressure Washer : Power Washer : Patio, Lawn & Garden
1,500 PSI, but only 1.5 GPM. I doubt it would last long with salt water though, but a full minute only uses 1.5 gl so fresh water is no big deal if you have a watermaker

[colemj]

Originally Posted by mramoo

Mark, This pump has an internal pressure relief valve, that controls the out-put volume. The reason than it is so fikicky at low volume, is that the internal passages that return the flow to the intake side of the pump are to small to handle the full volume the pump puts out.
This can be corrected by installing an external relief valve that is large enough to handle that volume. Then you would close the valve that is in the pump, and control the volume with the external valve.

I don't know the details on how the pump works, but can assure you that the motor does run at variable speeds - producing variable output.

It is possible that it also uses a bypass valve to help control output at lower levels, because its lowest speed is still higher than that on our old Shurflo VSP.

However, it just isn't a problem for us at those low flow levels, so there is no need for us to add an external valve and figure out how to close off the internal pump valve (is this even doable?).

Mark