Best Diesel Heater

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by osirissail

In the link it is a vented heater - not - unvented heater which is what most folks consider dangerous.

I was responding to Zee asking if I thought it was ok to run a diesel heater overnight. I said yes, that we in fact did. There was no mention in her question of 'unvented' and I am actually unaware of any appropriate unvented diesel heaters (the only ones I know of are huge construction site ones). The reflek vents the exhaust while drawing the input air from the cabin (although the have an input vented model also).

But if you are looking/want to go unvented (for ease of installation) I believe kero is the most common solution. I would have no problem using aboard (and running overnight)anything similar in quality to a sengoku kero heater, for example the heatmate. There is a Japanese brand I like a little better, Corona but it does not seem to be sold in the USA. Some of their models have have a built in air quality sensor. These are designed for inside use and approved by the relevant safety authorities for inside use (UL in the case of the USA). These units have catalytic burners - the technology I don't understand, but apparently reduces the CO output to nil after the first five minute warm-up period. A number of expedition yachts use these kero heaters because they are cheap and don't require any installation and work quite well.

Along these lines, as I said way back in this thread, when its just chilly and not cold, we use paraffin lamps (yes, unvented) and do run them at night. They produce just enough heat to cut a chill. These again were designed and speced and certified for inside use.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

. . . But if you are looking/want to go unvented (for ease of installation) I believe kero is the most common solution. I would have no problem using aboard (and running overnight)anything similar in quality to a sengoku kero heater, for example the heatmate . . .

- - I find it incredible that a "CF Advisor" would recommend using a heater - specifically the one mentioned in the their post #91 - the Sengoku Heatmate HMN-110 kerosene heater in direct opposition to the written instructions the come in that heater's manual. Such a recommendation could lead someone to do severe if not fatal damage to themselves. (See SeaHag's post #80) and (http://www.cojoweb.com/emerg-roomheating.html)

- - The manual is at this link: http://www.sengokula.com/sites/defau...radiantnew.pdf

- - On Page 4 section 4 - USAGE there is the bolded instruction:
"Before you go to bed or leave the room, extinguish the heater, then lift the burner and look at the wick to be sure the fire is completely out."

- - Also under 4 - USAGE is the the warning to "keep the room well ventilated." This is further expounded upon in the introductory "WARNINGS AND CAUTIONS" on page 1 of the manual -
"RISK OF INDOOR AIR POLLUTION - USE HEATER ONLY IN WELL VENTILATED AREAS."
Additionally it goes on to define that use must not be in a house of "tight construction due to heavy insulation and tight seals against air infiltration;however, if the heater is used in a small room where less than 200 cubic feet (5.7 m3) of air space is provided for each 1,000 BTU per hour of heater rating . . ."

- - That adds up to 2,000 cubic feet for this 10,000 BTU heater. Very few small cruising sailboats have that amount of interior free volume. So the "Warnings and Cautions" then says that a "window to the outside should be opened at least 1 inch (25.4mm) to guard against potential buildup of indoor air pollution."

- - Further down in "Warnings and Cautions" is "4. NEVER leave heater operating if you intend to leave for any period of time. Always make sure to turn heater off and inspect that it is completely extinguished prior to going to bed."

** The reality is that many, many people do use unvented kerosene heaters in closed houses/rooms. Either by luck or the stink of the kerosene they probably open windows and doors occasionally to "air out the room."

- - The problem is more acute in a small boat as the volume of internal living space is low and ventilation hatches are in the ceiling (overhead) where heated air escapes quite rapidly when opened. These type heaters are attractive to the minimalist budget cruiser in the northern cold areas of the world. Larger, more affluent cruisers can afford "vented" or "forced air" diesel heaters which do not have "air pollution" (Carbon Monoxide) problems.

- - So what is the "best diesel heater" - well it certainly is NOT an unvented propane/kerosene space heater which is more appropriate to workshops and garages. It is a vented heater like the many versions - Newport - Refleck - etc. Or a forced air system like the Wallas - Espar - etc. Otherwise, just sail south to warmer climates where you do not need a heater.

[cburger]

Originally Posted by osirissail

- - I find it incredible that a "CF Advisor" would recommend using a heater - specifically the one mentioned in the their post #91 - the Sengoku Heatmate HMN-110 kerosene heater in direct opposition to the written instructions the come in that heater's manual. Such a recommendation could lead someone to do severe if not fatal damage to themselves. (See SeaHag's post #80)

- - The manual is at this link: http://www.sengokula.com/sites/defau...radiantnew.pdf

- - On Page 4 section 4 - USAGE there is the bolded instruction:
"Before you go to bed or leave the room, extinguish the heater, then lift the burner and look at the wick to be sure the fire is completely out."

- - Also under 4 - USAGE is the the warning to "keep the room well ventilated." This is further expounded upon in the introductory "WARNINGS AND CAUTIONS" on page 1 of the manual -
"RISK OF INDOOR AIR POLLUTION - USE HEATER ONLY IN WELL VENTILATED AREAS."
Additionally it goes on to define that use must not be in a house of "tight construction due to heavy insulation and tight seals against air infiltration;however, if the heater is used in a small room where less than 200 cubic feet (5.7 m3) of air space is provided for each 1,000 BTU per hour of heater rating . . ."

- - That adds up to 2,000 cubic feet for this 10,000 BTU heater. Very few small cruising sailboats have that amount of interior free volume. So the "Warnings and Cautions" then says that a "window to the outside should be opened at least 1 inch (25.4mm) to guard against potential buildup of indoor air pollution."

- - Further down in "Warnings and Cautions" is "4. NEVER leave heater operating if you intend to leave for any period of time. Always make sure to turn heater off and inspect that it is completely extinguished prior to going to bed."

** The reality is that many, many people do use unvented kerosene heaters in closed houses/rooms. Either by luck or the stink of the kerosene they probably open windows and doors occasionally to "air out the room."

- - The problem is more acute in a small boat as the volume of internal living space is low and ventilation hatches are in the ceiling (overhead) where heated air escapes quite rapidly when opened. These type heaters are attractive to the minimalist budget cruiser in the northern cold areas of the world. Larger, more affluent cruisers can afford "vented" or "forced air" diesel heaters which do not have "air pollution" (CO2) problems.

- - So what is the "best diesel heater" - well it certainly is NOT an unvented propane/kerosene space heater which is more appropriate to workshops and garages. It is a vented heater like the many versions - Newport - Refleck - etc. Or a forced air system like the Wallas - Espar - etc. Otherwise, just sail south to warmer climates where you do not need a heater.

Thank you, and after and endless string of posts on the dangers of diesel heaters, stoves, engines to reccomend an unvented kero heater on a boat to sleep with, guess it would be a very long rest.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by osirissail

"window to the outside should be opened at least 1 inch (25.4mm) to guard against potential buildup of indoor air pollution."

I posted this exact recommendation just a couple posts above!!! With a 24" wide window that's 24 sq in of ventilation recommended by both this manufacturer and by the US consumer products safety commission. Now a 4" diameter dorade has 12 sq in, so two dorades would meet this requirement and may boats have at least two. We happen to have three + the mast and chain pipe and various other openings.

You are continuing to ignore the simple but compelling fact that the real world data does not support your extreme position, AND that the consumer product safety commission and UL support the use of these devices inside (with the above ventilation requirement). These things are used on boats and almost no-one dies from them and those that do are more frequently from fire than from CO. As I explained above that's probably because #1 our boats are not all that tight and #2 because people do mostly take due care with them and understand they can be dangerous.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

. . . You are continuing to ignore the simple but compelling fact that the real world data does not support your extreme position, AND that the consumer product safety commission and UL support the use of these devices inside (with the above ventilation requirement). These things are used on boats and almost no-one dies from them . . .

Two points - I am not ignoring anything but instead stating the reality that most active cruising boats are at least "water-tight" or we be very wet when at sea or when in rain. Hatches and ports all have "seals" to make them "water-tight" - which is pretty close to being also "air-tight" - unlike garages or hunting lodges or dilapidated houses where these "unvented space heaters" are more appropriate. We normally have "hatches" and "ports" - and "dorades" on sailboats - not windows. I spoke directly to the effects of opening an overhead "hatch" and the loss of whatever heat the unvented heaters can output.

- - And I like the qualifier - "almost no-one dies . . ." As it is said frequently, "almost" only counts in the game of horse-shoes. If that "one" who does die from improper use of unvented heaters is you - then the statistics become very personal to your family, etc. If that "one" who dies from improper use of an unvented kerosene heater got the idea from you that it was "okay," there are serious legal liabilities involved. That is a place I would not want to be. . . and I don't think CF would like that liability either.

[Strait Shooter]

Wow.
A tad over the top IMHO.
So if a moderator likes cats (I know this can't be true) and recomends a specific boat, and I buy one, flip it over and we all die, I should hold CF liable?

Maybe we can put bumpers on sharp corners, pad the walls, NO heat at night except electic, would that do it?

How about some personal responsibility? You mean there are people who cruise the oceans, learn to deal with weather, anchorages, and refits and then can't be trusted to leave a window open when they need to.

More boat parts for me and a Darwin award for them says I.

[Strait Shooter]

I forgot,,, for original poster, Espar hydronic.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by Strait Shooter

Wow.
A tad over the top IMHO.
So if a moderator likes cats (I know this can't be true) and recomends a specific boat, and I buy one, flip it over and we all die, I should hold CF liable? . . .

You are missing a vital point - "liking" something or even using it as you wish to use it is your problem. But advocating the use of something in direct opposition or contravention of the stated operating manual/instructions brings with it some responsibility for the improper use of the item and the consequences of that usage.

- - This is why we are burdened with "14 pages of "no-no's"" before you get to the one page that says - "plug it in and turn it on" part of any equipment manual/instructions these days.

[Greggegner]

Use them don't use them, it is a personal choice. I believe a CO sensor eliminates the issue. If they don't read any CO then you have enough ventilation. If they read CO open something. As several posts say just watch the fire danger. I agree with that. Let's try to focus on facts and good practices and not swaying opinion.

[Seahunter]

There's a simple solution to CO poisoning, and that's by installing CO detectors. Our little boat has three. CO poisoning is just another form of genetic selection and for boaters just another example of those who shop the discount aisle.
We went with a Webasto 2010, a 45000BTU hydronic system. It draws its combustion air from the engine room, (vented outboard) and exhausts midships through a wet exhaust. We had the exhaust custom fitted then all fittings welded. Heater boxes draw and recycle from the cabin space it's heating. Open flame heaters, EG, propane, wood, diesel are a waste of fuel, difficult to control, high maintenance, and are susceptible to CO leakage. My other choice would have been a large diesel range, but the weight and it non-gimbaled installation create other issues.

[rnjpinz]

I would like to thank you all for your input on this subject. One hundred responses. That is what makes this a great forum. I believe you have covered more than I could have ever thought. While some may have thought it was a bit over done, I think there were some great suggestions as well as important cautions that should be taken.

Thanks to all,
Bob

[AllezCat]

Ultimately - which is the best system?
I agree with Osirissail - vented system in engine room - which I have.
Or move south - which I am doing.

[travler37]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

I have an Espar D4 and absolutely hate it. We bought the boat with an old unit in it that would only work once a week. After much screwing around trying to fix the thing we removed itt and installed a new one. The new one is not much better it cycles on and off as if it reacting to the thermostat but the temperature read out doesn't corroborate. The thing absolutely wreaks when it runs and the "fan only" setting hardly puts out any air. Double thumbs down for this unit and one middle finger up for all of the time spent stuffed in the engine compartment trying to fix the old one. Yes that is a Tyvek suit I am wearing and yes the person taking that picture did eventually put down the camera and help me out of the compartment.

I have a Dickinson Newport that keeps my sailboat toasty. My only complaint is that it can be a tad hard to light. The soot factor isn't too bad and it comes with a fan installed to prevent downdrafts.

This is a typical ass backwards thing for a man to do.....
Did you not learn to bend over and put your head into it?Exposing your manly plumbers crack?My wench loves mine.....grins
Mark

[HHNTR111]

Originally Posted by AllezCat

Ultimately - which is the best system?
I agree with Osirissail - vented system in engine room - which I have.
Or move south - which I am doing.

And we are doing both...Espar or Webasto, and heading south...

[bsveine1]

What type of heater? Fuel type? Size, and $.
Thank