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Old 26-06-2013, 11:59   #31
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Re: Another Frigoboat cooling problem

Good to know you've used only pure R134a, Skip.
If you have frost anywhere past the end of the evaporator then your system is overcharged and it will not perform properly or efficiently. You will have to get the frost-line back to the end of the evaporator, or close to it, before you can meaningfully assess performance. Good luck!
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Old 26-06-2013, 12:12   #32
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Re: Another Frigoboat cooling problem

Thanks so much. I've reduced the volume slightly and am letting the system rest befoe restarting.

I'll keep at it, very slowly, and report back on how it does when the frost line is just visible.
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Old 30-06-2013, 08:36   #33
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Re: Another Frigoboat cooling problem

Update and stasis report:

I’ve been tracking the system as I slowly brought it into balance; the ice on the return line is right at the hole (inside the hole!) in the bulkhead, with cold and wet neoprene insulation outside for several inches.

The reefer is now constantly between hysteresis points other than during warm-loading episodes, and I’ve not been in the freezer for several days.

The freezer hovers around 16, which is 8 from low hysteresis.

Does this suggest anything other than evacuation and defrost (while evacuating) and recharge?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:00   #34
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Re: Another Frigoboat cooling problem

Skip: You need to get the frost line to the end of the evaorator, not to the bulkhead. I don't know where your bulkhead is, so I can make no comment.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:36   #35
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Re: Another Frigoboat cooling problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frigoboat Info View Post
Skip: You need to get the frost line to the end of the evaorator, not to the bulkhead. I don't know where your bulkhead is, so I can make no comment.


The construction of our box is, from inside out:

Evaporator, under the top of the freezer, which is 4Ē blue extruded foam encapsulated in epoxy and fiberglass, separated from the lid and countertop by an air gap and reflective material, and separated from the 6Ē same foam sides and bottom with the same treatment, by standoffs. Seeing behind the point where the tubing enters the box is impossible without a flexible scope and light, one of the tools I donít own.

Outside the 6Ē foam/epoxy seal/fiberglass is a 1.5Ē bulkhead into which I can JUST get a finger to feel ice.

So, nominally, there are about 8Ē from the evaporator (I donít recall whether the hole for the tubing is exactly at the point where it would be on the mounted evaporator) to the engine room.

At this time, there is no visible frost on the line, but the insulation inside the hole in the bulkhead is hard, but soft, wet and cold just outside of the bulkhead.

I infer from your comment, then, that there will be no means of accurately determining frost line (which moved/disappeared entirely during a one-hour-or-less trip for fuel, round trip, shut off at the dock) without such scope?

Thanks.

L8R

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Old 03-07-2013, 06:02   #36
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Re: Another Frigoboat cooling problem

Update:

I'd quit monitoring every half hour as things were very stable. However over the last several days, the freezer has been creeping down, the reefer cycled between the hysteresis points, and all looked well, other than that the freezer wasn't getting lower than about 13 other than on one reading time.

An anomaly occurred last night. We opened the reefer to fetch veggies and install a half-dozen cans of beer.

The reefer temp stayed about the same, but the freezer shot from an all-day 13-14 to 28-29 in a matter of minutes, and isnít coming down. I cycled the compressor (turned it off, read for 30 minutes or so and turned it back on) in hopes that if there were some sort of blockage, equalization of pressure might release it. If that's the cause, it didn't work, as freezer is now 32.5 and reefer is 36.3, (should be 32-34) despite spillover open and fan running, and climbing slowly, this morning.



I donít know much, and much of what I know is wrong, but thatís suggestive of a blockage, isnít it? And, Iíd expect to see that (some contaminant) along the way, as Iíve not evacuated it since the first time, but had the low-pressure open, and had hoses attached and removed in the course of my remedying my ill-advised (my own!) bleeding and then having to recharge and then do the current VERY careful bleeding to get it to what appeared to be a low-teens stability.

Itís looking more like an evacuation and recharge to me. Would you agree?

And, if so, in the event I can do it effectively, what is the appropriate pressure on the high and low sides to which I should charge?
Thanks.

L8R

Skip
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:46   #37
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Re: Another Frigoboat cooling problem

Skip: Forget about blockages.

What type/model of evaporator do you have and exactly how is it mounted?

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Old 03-07-2013, 07:22   #38
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Re: Another Frigoboat cooling problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frigoboat Info View Post
Skip: Forget about blockages.

What type/model of evaporator do you have and exactly how is it mounted?

Frigoboat Info
I guess I'm missing something here.

Early on I specified what I had and how it was mounted. Just recently I specified how far out the bulkhead was from the box, and of which it was made. The pictures in the gallery included how we bent it to fit the freezer compartment. There were no standoffs with the system when it arrived but I had some from other electronics mountings when I redid the radios. They're hard nylon cylinder-with-hole standoffs, ~1/2 inch.

I don't know the model number, but it's the biggest evaporator plate made, SS on the face. It wraps around three sides, leaving about 2" at both ends, and near the top of the box, leaving about 6" or so at the bottom.

It's attached to the fiberglass box over 6" extruded foam sealed with epoxy, and air and radiant barriers, with screws through the factory holes in the evaporator and through the spacers. The compressor is a 50. There's a keel cooler which has done an admirable job of dumping heat.

How does the model determine how/why this behavior, which is very different from the last more-than-a-week, should occur?

I'm REALLY stupid about this, obviously, so I apologize and ask for clarity in instruction. I was JUST about to hook up the vacuum (2.5cfm) and gauges, and the Honda's running, so soon would be good, if it's convenient.

Thanks.

L8R

Skip
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:51   #39
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Re: Another Frigoboat Cooling Problem

Skip: You had said "Evaporator, under the top of the freezer," earlier, and I had to verify that it was mounted vertically, not horizontally. You had given me the model and type earlier, so my apologies for not remembering that.

Do not mess with anything. Do not fiddle with the charge. You do not have a blockage or moisture problem.

Please stand by. Frigoboat Info
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:06   #40
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Re: Another Frigoboat Cooling Problem

I'm missing some information here. When the box temperature crept up, was the compressor running? Was there good frost on the evaporator and tubing? When you turned the compressor back on did it start and run? Was there frost on the evaporator at that time? Was there frost on the tubing? I have been under the assumption that the compressor has been running continuously as the freezer has not reached set point. Can you confirm that please?
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:50   #41
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Re: Another Frigoboat Cooling Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frigoboat Info View Post
Skip: You had said "Evaporator, under the top of the freezer," earlier, and I had to verify that it was mounted vertically, not horizontally. You had given me the model and type earlier, so my apologies for not remembering that.

Do not mess with anything. Do not fiddle with the charge. You do not have a blockage or moisture problem.

Please stand by. Frigoboat Info
Standing by :{)) BTW this system performed flawlessly in the tropics for 2 years before my recent stint in the yard.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Frigoboat Info View Post
I'm missing some information here. When the box temperature crept up, was the compressor running? Was there good frost on the evaporator and tubing? When you turned the compressor back on did it start and run? Was there frost on the evaporator at that time? Was there frost on the tubing? I have been under the assumption that the compressor has been running continuously as the freezer has not reached set point. Can you confirm that please?
Aside from a brief experiment, early on, where I tried lower speeds on manual setting, and during the suction test, the system has been running full-out since this discussion started other than the recent cycling. It continues to do so.

Each time I turned the system off I waited long enough for the system to equalize before restarting, and each time it started again without a hitch.

At this time, evaporator is still frosted (I was going to defrost during evacuation to enhance any moisture removal and kill two birds with one stone), but there is no frost outside the bulkhead, nor even hard insulation, any more. Without a flexible scope I can't be sure of the frost level on the tubing, and I'd have to be inside the freezer box to see it, which would make me think that at 8į (set point) there would be frost on the line in the box, but beyond the plate, but certainly there is no longer any at the bulkhead.

The alarming thing is that it went from an apparent slow move to the right direction (the 8" between bulkhead and actual evap perhaps being the issue) to a nearly instant rise, quickly, in temps, to a relatively stable 32-33-ish (32.8 as I write) with NO interference in the system. The cycling done last night was to attempt blockage position change, to no effect.

So, if not a blockage or moisture, what else could be going on?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:10   #42
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Re: Another Frigoboat Cooling Problem

Do you have another thermostat that you can use to verify the readout on the Carel? If you twiddle with the sensor for the freezer t/stat does it alter the display reading?
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:47   #43
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Re: Another Frigoboat Cooling Problem

freezer interior 29 (water bottle) - 30 (waving infrared thermo around interior), plate 26, mostly bare now. My hand on the temp probe = rise faster than I can speak (tenths). Slow drop back down (not yet there from over 4 in the time it's taken to type this, now 36.7 and dropping 0.1/15 seconds).

Thanks.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:42   #44
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Re: Another Frigoboat Cooling Problem

I'm having a hard time assessing this information Skip, but now I gather that with the compressor running (confirmed?), the frost is dissapearing from the plate (I gather that is what you mean by "mostly bare now"), and the temps are rising. Have you tried the hot-rag trick? You can find details here: http://coastalcoolaids.com/images/Ca...th_Diagram.pdf
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:54   #45
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Re: Another Frigoboat Cooling Problem

I don't see any excess tube so presume it's right at the plate? I'll try a hot-wet rag as best I can (the evap plate isn't tubed on the input end of it and I have limited access due to the plate being close to the top). There's probably also a fair amount of ice still there, but for the little time I opened the box, it appeared so; that would make the hot-wet rag trick a multiple-time job, right?
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