Adding black water discharge, do I need Y-valve?

[artisanmach]

Human Waste Disposal
Pumpout Services

What it all means...

This national symbol is used to show boaters where onshore pumpout services
are located. You’ll need to know this symbol if you use a portable toilet or Type III
MSD (holding tank) on your boat.

Federal law says that untreated sewage (even if it's been dosed with a deodorant product) can NOT be discharged in inland or coastal waters. This means the sewage from a portable toilet or a Type III holding tank can not be discharged unless you are in the ocean more than 3 miles offshore.

Federal law also states that if you have a holding tank with a "Y" valve allowing direct overboard discharge of untreated waste, it must be secured in the closed position while operating in all inland and coastal waters. Using a non-releasable wire tie, padlock, or removing the valve handle is considered adequate securing of the device.

Operating in a federally designated “No Discharge Area” further restricts what sewage you can discharge overboard. In these areas, there is no treated sewage discharge allowed from boats. That means if you have a Type I or II MSD, you are not allowed to discharge it while in those waters. There is a trend towards more local waters being designated as No Discharge Areas, so if you rely on using your Type I or II MSD, check a cruising guide before venturing into new waters.

What about grey water?

Grey water is the water discharging from your sink and shower, while black water is the sewage/water discharging from a toilet. In the United States, there are no federal requirements for the containment of grey water. However, in Canada, and in some inland lakes, there may be additional restrictions. Please check your local cruising guide or with your local state boating agency for more details. Are You In Compliance?

[CaptTom]

I also have a "T" from the bottom of the tank to the deck pump-out and the macerator. Works great. A couple of tips that may help:

- The macerator (and the T) can be above the full level of the tank. No gushers if you ever need to change or clean the macerator.

- There are macerators that are NOT self-priming. Those won't work in this arrangement. West Marine sells them under their own brand name. Look for one that says self-priming on the package, like a Jabsco.

I like the idea of a key switch on the macerator, but haven't tried it yet. My last boat came from the factory with two momentary contact switches hidden under the dash. No way to accidentally run the macerator, but no lock, either. I always wondered if that would pass muster with a boarding party.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by artisanmach

Human Waste Disposal
Pumpout Services

What it all means...

This national symbol is used to show boaters where onshore pumpout services
are located. You’ll need to know this symbol if you use a portable toilet or Type III
MSD (holding tank) on your boat.

Federal law says that untreated sewage (even if it's been dosed with a deodorant product) can NOT be discharged in inland or coastal waters. This means the sewage from a portable toilet or a Type III holding tank can not be discharged unless you are in the ocean more than 3 miles offshore.

Federal law also states that if you have a holding tank with a "Y" valve allowing direct overboard discharge of untreated waste, it must be secured in the closed position while operating in all inland and coastal waters. Using a non-releasable wire tie, padlock, or removing the valve handle is considered adequate securing of the device.

Operating in a federally designated “No Discharge Area” further restricts what sewage you can discharge overboard. In these areas, there is no treated sewage discharge allowed from boats. That means if you have a Type I or II MSD, you are not allowed to discharge it while in those waters. There is a trend towards more local waters being designated as No Discharge Areas, so if you rely on using your Type I or II MSD, check a cruising guide before venturing into new waters.

What about grey water?

Grey water is the water discharging from your sink and shower, while black water is the sewage/water discharging from a toilet. In the United States, there are no federal requirements for the containment of grey water. However, in Canada, and in some inland lakes, there may be additional restrictions. Please check your local cruising guide or with your local state boating agency for more details. Are You In Compliance?

Just a comment on the Y valve needing to be 'secured'. The requirement to 'secure' it with a lock or tie is an American requirement. On this side of the pond it's not required as Australia recognises the common sense approach that a lock or tie is not going to stop the owner from undoing it when / if they want to use it.

Most Y valves when you move the handle, they 'lock' into position and you then can't accidentally change it. This is enough 'securing' in Australia.

Places like Queensland over here have taken a more common sense approach and require all vessels with a built in head to have a holding tank. Still doesn't guarantee it will be used, but neither does a lock on a Y valve.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Sandibar

Yes, no problems anticipated when pumping out at sea. I was concerned that the boat's diaphragm pump won't like the pressure difference when using an external pump-out station through the deck fitting. I.e. there is suction from deck side of the pump and a closed thru-hull on the other side. Pressure either equalizes through the pump, or it seals the thru-hull side of the pipe and the pressure difference remains as long as the station pump is operated. I don't know how these diaphragm pumps operate and if the pressure difference will damage the pump. Don't think it will, but just wanted to make sure. With the above feedback I'm pretty confident it will be ok - thanks everyone!

No.

That's the reason I said what I did. Once the thru hull is closed and you're pulling out of the deck fill, the pump sees NOTHING.

That's why there's a vent on the holding tank.

Draw yourself a sketch if you must.

[Sandibar]

Stu, I'll take your word for it although I would have thought the pressure difference from the pump out station would extend to the whole system. Pump is installed already without a valve but haven't hooked up electrics yet.

Here a holding tank is mandatory. I got rid of the Y-valve and direct pump from bowl to sea. The logic for me is following: When inshore I'm required and would like to use the holding tank anyway and can use pump out stations. I can also keep the seacock shut and not worry about it failing. Offshore (past the legal limits anyway) I can open the seacock for the duration it takes to pump the tank empty. Only potential problem I see, if the diaphragm pump fails - then there is no direct bowl-to-sea option.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by Sandibar

I got rid of the Y-valve and direct pump from bowl to sea.

I think you mean that you got rid of the whole process of bowl-to-sea. That's the way most newer boats (for at least over a decade now) have been rigged in the US.

I think of it this way; in the beginning, the "head" was just a hole forward that sat directly over the water. A toilet below decks that pumped directly to the water was a big improvement.

Next came the "Y" valve that allowed the waste to be diverted to a holding tank when in port, instead of directly over the side.

But if you have a holding tank, there's no need for the "Y" valve any more. It's simpler to just pump the bowl to the holding tank. From there, you can pump overboard when offshore, or to a pump-out station in port. I guess if you spend a lot of time offshore, it's an extra step, otherwise, it's easier to skip that part of the plumbing altogether.

But, US law (and boarding parties) don't keep up with the times. They're still focused on the position of that pesky "Y" valve. I've often thought about installing one that leads to nowhere, and locking it closed with a big, mean-looking padlock. Label it with big letters. Point to it proudly when boarded, and I bet the boarding officer will go away happy.

[NorthCoastJoe]

Just a thought, if you have a pump that can lift to deck level, why not get a deck fitting, two elbows, and enough hose to get it over the side. That way no extra holes in your hull and it would be failsafe. After use flush with sea water and store it.

[Sandibar]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

But if you have a holding tank, there's no need for the "Y" valve any more. It's simpler to just pump the bowl to the holding tank. From there, you can pump overboard when offshore, or to a pump-out station in port.

Yes, exactly. This is the way I'm going now. The boat is old, from '88 and the plumbing probably as old.

Just a thought, if you have a pump that can lift to deck level, why not get a deck fitting, two elbows, and enough hose to get it over the side. That way no extra holes in your hull and it would be failsafe. After use flush with sea water and store it.

Already have the hole in the hull. That said I'd still prefer to pump out through a fixed seacock than rig an extra hose each time. The tank is just 45L (11Gallons) so it fills up quite quickly.

[Sandibar]

And oh, this thread reminds me why I love CF. It seems the politico-religious threads dominate the forum sometimes, but there's a ton of useful stuff to be learned here!

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

I think you mean that you got rid of the whole process of bowl-to-sea. That's the way most newer boats (for at least over a decade now) have been rigged in the US.

I think of it this way; in the beginning, the "head" was just a hole forward that sat directly over the water. A toilet below decks that pumped directly to the water was a big improvement.

Next came the "Y" valve that allowed the waste to be diverted to a holding tank when in port, instead of directly over the side.

But if you have a holding tank, there's no need for the "Y" valve any more. It's simpler to just pump the bowl to the holding tank. From there, you can pump overboard when offshore, or to a pump-out station in port. I guess if you spend a lot of time offshore, it's an extra step, otherwise, it's easier to skip that part of the plumbing altogether.

But, US law (and boarding parties) don't keep up with the times. They're still focused on the position of that pesky "Y" valve. I've often thought about installing one that leads to nowhere, and locking it closed with a big, mean-looking padlock. Label it with big letters. Point to it proudly when boarded, and I bet the boarding officer will go away happy.

a lot of new boats make sure the holding tank is above the water line. The bowl pumps to the holding tank. But there is no need to 'pump' over board when out to sea and at least in this country no need for that Y valve. When at sea, you just open the seacock and the waste falls out via gravity feed.

This was one of the first modifications I made in my boat when I purchased it. Because I live 7hours from the sea.