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Old 08-11-2017, 07:13   #16
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Pete like you I recognize incorrect advise posted on the web and the lack of after market technical support in this boat refrigeration industry. Danfoss especially has held proprietary technical internal circuits of their electronic modules secret. Most job shops that market refrigeration units with Danfoss Secop BD compressors offer trouble correction charts like the one you follow. Unfortunately these charts do not cover the numerous design configuration used in pleasure boats today. When troubleshooting each different design the basic test must be altered too include that manufacturers design and their options.
The major problem with electronically controlled brushless 12/24 volt compressors is dirty electrical power from boat's on board electrical power grid.

Pete, the point I tried to make is refrigeration installed in a boat is exposed to trenchant voltage spikes that control module can interrupt preventing compressor from running while voltmeter can not. For a technician to rely on a voltmeter or ohm resistance to justify opening or condemning compressor is a mistake. Because 30 to 40% of system fail to boot up and run is caused by non related boat’s electrical wiring grid I recommend in my customized trouble chart a test powering complete refrigerator from another fully charged battery independent of all boat wiring. As far as the variable speed BD compressors I add a check to see if compressor gets warm after power is on for 20 minutes If compressor does get warm with LED code or not I again would bypass all boat’s power grid as a test before tampering with refrigerant or connecting a servicing hose. Replacing module will not correct pulse phase interruption do to a bad boat ground or a defective circuit board on Adler Barbour CU 100 or CU200 units.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:50   #17
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Because YouTube is easy...and this ain't Rocket Science.
I Present for your viewing pleasure....an LED error lights description and advice given for troubleshooting Video. If he wasn't so ugly he could be a Youtube star...

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Old 08-11-2017, 09:54   #18
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Its just the shirt Rich .

Regards John.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:59   #19
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post

The system is home built, using the holding plates and copper tubing from the original 1980s era A/C system. The BD50 compressor is wired directly to the house bank, with just a switch and a fuse in line. All connections look good.
Here's a trick to get past the initial start-up load on a holding plate system using a Danfoss compressor. The compressor is set to High speed (3500RPMs) by a 1500ohm resister that is typically soldered into the thermostat wire that plugs into the electronic controller. So remove the thermostat lines and put a jumper wire in the spade connectors No 1 and No3 when counting from the bottom where the normal thermostat wires typically go. Now without the resister wired in, the compressor will run at low speed (2000RPM) and that lower work load can help get past the larger load at start up. Let it run this way for 4-5 hours or over night and then put the wiring back to normal. The compressor never works as hard again than at a warm plate start-up, so this trick gets you past that.

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Old 08-11-2017, 11:54   #20
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Thanks Rich for your help. I ran into two separate boaters last year where the tech advised them to replace their systems and later found out the new units failed to run because of undetectable boat low voltage spikes.

Rich another trick when a heat soaked BD compressor fails to accomplish a hard start is to place a bag of ice against evaporator or holding plate. Reducing refrigerant saturated vapor temperature and the pressure to liquid allows compressor armature to rotate. This hard start condition is more likely on systems with TXV when receiver contains more refrigerant than required.
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Old 13-11-2017, 00:26   #21
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
Pete like you I recognize incorrect advise posted on the web and the lack of after market technical support in this boat refrigeration industry. Danfoss especially has held proprietary technical internal circuits of their electronic modules secret. Most job shops that market refrigeration units with Danfoss Secop BD compressors offer trouble correction charts like the one you follow. Unfortunately these charts do not cover the numerous design configuration used in pleasure boats today. When troubleshooting each different design the basic test must be altered too include that manufacturers design and their options.
The major problem with electronically controlled brushless 12/24 volt compressors is dirty electrical power from boat's on board electrical power grid.

Pete, the point I tried to make is refrigeration installed in a boat is exposed to trenchant voltage spikes that control module can interrupt preventing compressor from running while voltmeter can not. For a technician to rely on a voltmeter or ohm resistance to justify opening or condemning compressor is a mistake. Because 30 to 40% of system fail to boot up and run is caused by non related boat’s electrical wiring grid I recommend in my customized trouble chart a test powering complete refrigerator from another fully charged battery independent of all boat wiring. As far as the variable speed BD compressors I add a check to see if compressor gets warm after power is on for 20 minutes If compressor does get warm with LED code or not I again would bypass all boat’s power grid as a test before tampering with refrigerant or connecting a servicing hose. Replacing module will not correct pulse phase interruption do to a bad boat ground or a defective circuit board on Adler Barbour CU 100 or CU200 units.
Richard, LOW VOLTAGE is by far the most common reason a 12VDC refrigeration system, that has worked fine for years, suddenly will not run. Easily identified using a Multi-meter as I described in point one. Now you can again divert away from the facts as much as you like but in reality it is as simple as that, very rarely transient voltage spikes, dirty power or ingrown toenails, just plain old low voltage.

Here is an explanation as to what happens... and why the suggested steps work.. (This expands on our step one in post 9)
These Electronic Motor Drivers (EMD) operate within a set voltage range. This operating 'window' has an upper parameter usually 17VDC and an adjustable low voltage parameter best set at approx 11.5VDC. Now while the voltage presented stays within these values the EMD remains in 'On mode' and will run the compressor on and off upon demand from the thermostat. But should the voltage drift outside these parameters (usually low voltage) the EMD will go into 'Off mode' .
To reboot into 'On mode the EMD has to 'see' a voltage approx one volt higher than the low voltage cut-out value so say 12.5VDC.

The most common cause of low voltage and therefore tripping the EMD into Off mode, is a failing battery system, poor cable, connection or device in the power supply chain. If it is a failing battery supply it is common for the EMD to drop into Off mode then stay off as the defective or flat battery can't present sufficient voltage to trip the EMD into On mode. On occasions when a partly defective supply is able to trip the EMD back into On mode the compressor may start but quickly the voltage dies and the Off mode occurs. This is a sure sign of a poor power supply again. Check as described in my post #9 using a MULTI-METER!

Now you also condemned my step 4 where we suggest checking the motor winding resistance with a multi-meter to eliminate the rare possibility of a faulty compressor motor. Please explain how else someone with little more than a multi-meter at hand can confirm or otherwise if the compressor itself is ok.

Regards transient voltages (These are high voltage spikes that can travel along your DC power wires and may damage the EMD and erode compressor motor winding insulation.)
As I reported on this forum earlier this year, it is a good idea to fit a Transient Voltage Arrestor, (AKA Voltage Clamp, Zorb, Transient voltage suppressor)
Transient Voltage Arrestors are fitted standard to Ozerfridge systems and I would highly recommend everyone fitting one to not only protect their fridge but other electronic items as well, after all they cost very little!! One device usually protects all electronic items connected to the same circuit but do not locate near the battery or any flammables.

And Richard, as I suggested to you in a post earlier this year, if you wish to continue disputing posts from industry people like ourselves, you might like to do so via PM or email.. your call, I'm easy and enjoy the entertainment!

Cheers, OzePete www.ozefridge.com.au
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Old 13-11-2017, 07:44   #22
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

And Richard, as I suggested to you in a post earlier this year, if you wish to continue disputing posts from industry people like ourselves, you might like to do so via PM or email.. your call, I'm easy and enjoy the entertainment!

Cheers, OzePete Ozefridge | 12 Volt Refrigeration Systems




Pete, you are posting on a fair refrigeration forum that boating people read to ask questions and then hope to get answers not influenced by special secret interests. NO, I will continue to point out posts that are questionable advice.
These technical forums are not subjects for entertainment, as you suggest, as for as I am concerned.

The older a boats wiring gets the more likely low voltage spikes that can prevent compressor from running will occur. It is true that a voltmeter is not effective in detecting short duration low voltage spikes.

Yes it is true that Danfoss troubleshooting suggests measuring resistance of field coils inside compressor. Experience with having someone measure field coil ohms of resistance normally produces false readings because the reading are less than 5 ohms. A mistake made measuring field coils sometimes cost owner $500 to $1000. So I do not recommend this test on air cooled Danfoss BD compressors.
The only times I was able to confirm a field coil failure was when someone tried to run compressor connected direct to 12 volts. Pete if your field coil test involves a water cooled system it will confirm that likely the complete system must be replaced.
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Old 13-11-2017, 09:41   #23
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Rich and Pete, thank you both for providing such well thought out explanations. This is a complex subject for me and I really appreciate the knowledge you both display. Your differing explanations are really informative to me.
I have learned so much from you both. Thank you again
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Old 13-11-2017, 15:09   #24
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Thanks Badsanta, pleased we were able to assist with some simple test processes. My 5 point test (post 9) didn't include fault diode diagnosis as many systems don't have them especially older ones, but Rich (from CoolBlue) has posted his excellent video here which covers the test process, referring to the fault light indicators, in a simple easy to follow format.. It is not rocket science and is best kept simple!

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Old 28-07-2021, 10:11   #25
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Looks like this thread is a bit stale, but as it turns out, I have the same problem... I have two BD50F compressors running 134a. The Freezer system is working fine. On a start up yesterday, the refrigerator indicator immediately started showing three flashes interspaced at 4 sec intervals. After checking the easy stuff - cycling the breaker several times after a few second intervals, I pulled out all the interference stuff to get a good look at the system. Looks clean enough. No excessive dust or evidence of oil leaks. Wiring looks and feels in good shape. The original controllers are the Danfoss '210' variety. The previous owner left me a 'spare' which I suspect was a previously installed part that failed and that he kept for P/N or whatever. From it's appearance it wasn't a new part. At any rate, I tried simply replacing the controller with the 'spare' - no joy. So today, I'm going to start with the 5 step procedure recommended. I hope to come back today with results - hopefully one of you more experienced fridge techs can help me out... Cheers Rob. P.S. I checked around - apparently the '210' controller has been replaced by the '212'...
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Old 28-07-2021, 11:12   #26
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Yes Rob,
The -210 Danfoss controller has been replaced with the -212 controller.
Some places still carry old stock with the heat fins, but the new -212 controller doesn't have them. Voltage issues is the No 1 killer of these Controllers.

You are in the good situation where you have a known working controller on your other compressor unit. So you could swap the working controller over to the other compressor unit as a good troubleshooting technique to prove out the function of your controller.

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Old 28-07-2021, 16:01   #27
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Well….

At least I know the controller isn’t the problem. Swapped out the working Freezer controller and same problem. Tried reducing compressor speed…no joy. Did all the other easy electrical tests - no success. I’m calling in a tech at this point. This is seriously looking like a mechanical problem. Interesting - the couple that started this thread did all the same things and wound up changing the compressor out. Notwithstanding all the expert advice here - which I certainly do appreciate - seems the ‘…almost never the problem…’ compressor seized problem does in fact happen.

I’ll return when I finally get to the bottom of this one…

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Old 28-07-2021, 16:22   #28
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

The "Almost Never Happens" failure does suck when it happens to you...

But there still could be a commonality...the electrical connections and wiring sending power to the unit. So as a "One More Confirmation" think before spending a Boat Buck, would recommend running a temp wire directly from the ships battery Pos/Neg Posts to the Refrigerator unit with the confirmed working compressor. If still dead with the thermostat jumped, then well...as Capt Kirk would say, "He's Dead Jim".
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Old 28-07-2021, 19:23   #29
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

Actually Bones said that Rich...lol.
Rob...One thing you could try is taking a well charges battery and hook it up directly to the unit with number 10 short leads and see if there is any difference.
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Old 28-07-2021, 20:01   #30
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Re: 3 flashes on Danfoss control

If with three flash LED code and compressor is still drawing normal amperage and no evaporator cooling. Use a test jumper wire from module ground terminal to battery ground post. to clean up current flow.
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