220v Compressor noise Grunert holding plate system

[botanybay]

Pre-Experiment conditions:

Air temp 78F
Water temp 72F
Plates Cool 22F (7 hours after prior test with box open)
Salt water flow UNrestricted (Full flow)
TXV 1/8 CW from default position.

Time 0 min
Compressor on, sounding fine
Note that plates are cool 22F (Most Ice has melted off the the plate faces)

Time 0.5 min
High Pressure: 87 psi
Low Pressure: 10 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: warm = 94 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 74 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 25 F
Return Line at Compressor: 75 F (Suction line near pallet 46 F)

Time 10 min
High Pressure: 85 psi
Low Pressure: 9 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: warm = 107 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 73 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 23.9 F
Return Line at Compressor: 76 F (Suction line near pallet 54 F)

Time 28 min
High Pressure: 86 psi
Low Pressure: 10 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 154 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 75 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 7.9 F
Return Line at Compressor: 84 F (Suction line near pallet 54 F)

Time 50 min
High Pressure: 87 psi
Low Pressure: 10 psi
Frost: Suction tube near pallet is frosted
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 182 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 76 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 8.3 F
Return Line at Compressor: 88 F (Suction line near pallet 6.9 F)

Time 60 min
High Pressure: 84 psi
Low Pressure: 10 psi
Frost: heavy frost on return line near pallet, light frost on check valve on pallet prior to heat exchanger
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 190 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 74 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 7.9 F
Return Line at Compressor: 82 F (Suction line near pallet heavy frost)

Time 70 min
High Pressure: 82 psi
Low Pressure: 9 psi
Frost: Frost on check valve on pallet turned to moisture
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 190 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 74 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 6.1 F
Return Line at Compressor: 90 F (Suction line near pallet heavy frost)

Time 80 min
High Pressure: 82 psi
Low Pressure: 9 psi
Frost: Frost returned to check valve on pallet prior to heat exchanger
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 196 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 72 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 6.1 F
Return Line at Compressor: 83 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy frost)

Time 90 min
High Pressure: 82 psi
Low Pressure: 9 psi
Frost: Frost to the inlet of the suction inlet of the high side / low side heat exchanger
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 199 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 73 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 6.1 F
Return Line at Compressor: 89 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Time 95 min
Action, tapped lightly on the expansion valve in case it is sticky

Time 100 min
High Pressure: 80 psi
Low Pressure: 9 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 206 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 71 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 6.5 F
Return Line at Compressor: 85 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Time 110 min
High Pressure: 80 psi
Low Pressure: 9 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 202 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 71 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 6.7 F
Return Line at Compressor: 84 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Action: Additional 1/8 turn CW
Position: Default + 1/4 turn CW from original position

Time 120 min
High Pressure: 80 psi
Low Pressure: 9.5 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 201 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 71 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 6.3 F
Return Line at Compressor: 88 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Action: Additional 1/8 turn CW
Position: Default + 3/8 turn CW from original position

Time 130 min
High Pressure: 80 psi
Low Pressure: 9.5 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 203 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 71 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 6.3 F
Return Line at Compressor: 89 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Time 140 min
High Pressure: 80 psi
Low Pressure: 10 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 207 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 72 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 6.3 F
Return Line at Compressor: 91 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Time 150 min
High Pressure: 80 psi
Low Pressure: 9.75 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 206 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 71 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 6.3 F
Return Line at Compressor: 91 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Terminating run, temp at thermostat bulb is 10.6F
warmest point on plate 2 is 30F otherwise 10 F is warmest large area, most of plate is -4F
Plate 1 is +2 F

[botanybay]

Pre-Experiment conditions:

Air temp 78F
Water temp 72F
Plates Cool 22F (7 hours after prior test with box open)
Salt water flow UNrestricted (Full flow)
TXV 3/8 CW from default position.

Time 0 min
Compressor on, sounding fine
Note that plates are cool 32F & 24F

Time 0.5 min
High Pressure: 86 psi
Low Pressure: 9 psi
Frost: on expansion valve after a couple of minutes
Compressor to Condenser Temp: warm = 97 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 76 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 33 F
Return Line at Compressor: 76 F (Suction line near pallet 50 F)

Time 10 min
High Pressure: 85 psi
Low Pressure: 9 psi
Frost: top of plate 2, exit of plate 1, plate 1 wet across surface
Compressor to Condenser Temp: warm = 137 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 76 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 29 F
Return Line at Compressor: 82 F (Suction line near pallet 56 F)

Time 20 min
High Pressure: 85 psi
Low Pressure: 9.5 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 158 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 75 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 23.6 F
Return Line at Compressor: 85 F (Suction line near pallet 55 F)

Time 25 min: bulb temp moving quickly downward, low pressure side might be slightly higher, bulb temp is 18F
Time 26 min: bulb temp is 14F, suction near pallet is 55F
Time 27 min: bulb temp 11F
Time 28 min: bulb temp 9.9F
Time 29 min: bulb temp 9.5F

Time 30 min
High Pressure: 86 psi
Low Pressure: 9.5 psi
Frost: Suction tube near pallet is frosted
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 174 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 75 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 9.4 F
Return Line at Compressor: 86 F (Suction line near pallet 55 F)

Time 40 min
High Pressure: 87 psi
Low Pressure: 11 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 184 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 77 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 10.3 F
Return Line at Compressor: 95 F (Suction line near pallet 58 F)

Time 50 min
High Pressure: 93 psi
Low Pressure: 11.5 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 191 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 80 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 10.8 F
Return Line at Compressor: 91 F (Suction line near pallet 54 F)

Time 60 min
High Pressure: 92 psi
Low Pressure: 12 psi
Frost: Suction line near pallet, suction line on pallet is sweating, site glass went to half full
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 199 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 79 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 11 F
Return Line at Compressor: 92 F (Suction line near pallet 18)

Time 70 min
High Pressure: 90 psi
Low Pressure: 11 psi
Frost: Suction line near pallet
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 201 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 80 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 9.5 F
Return Line at Compressor: 93 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Time 80 min
High Pressure: 89 psi
Low Pressure: 11 psi
Frost: Suction line near pallet
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 202 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 80 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 8.8 F
Return Line at Compressor: 93 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Time 90 min
High Pressure: 87 psi
Low Pressure: 10 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 203 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 76 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 8.1 F
Return Line at Compressor: 91.5 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Time 115 min
High Pressure: 84 psi
Low Pressure: 10 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 205 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 74 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 8.3 F
Return Line at Compressor: 90.3 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

[botanybay]

Examined plate, looking for why a corner was not freezing down.
some expanding foam was connecting the box wall to the plate perhaps providing heat conduction, carved that away.

Discovered that the expansion bulb is not on the outflow of the plate but rather the vertical connection between the first and second circuit of the
second plate... The exit of the second plate goes right through the wall and so there is no way to get the bulb on the tube at that point without
significant carving of box material. Might be worth it though...

Found two spots where the return line for the TXV bulb could potentially be touching the connection line between the two plates, a crossing situation where it might barely (or intermittently touch). Adjusted tube to be sure it's won't touch and used pieces of insulation to seperate from suction line.

Might have been serendipity but shortly thereafter the bottom of plate 2 appeared have the surface freeze up hard

Looks like I can see about a +/- 0.5 psi slow oscillation in the low pressure side now

Time 140 min from original run
High Pressure: 82 psi
Low Pressure: 10 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: warm = 202 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 73 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 8.8 F
Return Line at Compressor: 89 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Time 155 min from original run
High Pressure: 82 psi
Low Pressure: 10.5 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: warm = 202 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 74 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 8.8 F
Return Line at Compressor: 89 F (Suction line near pallet Heavy Frost)

Adjusted thermostat to see if plate temp is within shutdown range. At position 1 the compressor turned off.

leaving door to fridge closed for the night to see where it settles. Plates should go to about 10 F

[botanybay]

Pre-Experiment conditions:

Air temp 68F
Water temp 72F
Plates Cool 18F (7 hours after prior test with box closed)
Salt water flow UNrestricted (Full flow)
TXV 3/8 CW from default position.

Time 0.5 min
High Pressure: 82 psi
Low Pressure: 9 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: warm = 95 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 72 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 22 F
Return Line at Compressor: 71 F (Suction line near pallet 39 F)
Notes: Definitely a couple of cycles of suction side on the way down, down to perhaps 15 psi then up to 20 or possibly 25 psi then back down to 15 psi, then
pulled down to 9 psi and stayed
note, about +2 F per loop on heat exchanger, i.e. inlet is 73 F, loop 1 is 75 F, loop 2 is 77 F, loop 3 is 79 F

Time 15 min
High Pressure: 82 psi
Low Pressure: 9 psi
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: warm = 136 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 72 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 8.3 F
Return Line at Compressor: 79 F (Suction line near pallet 49 F)

Time 20 min
High Pressure: 82 psi
Low Pressure: 9 psi
Frost: Suction return near pallet is sweating
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 144 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 72 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 8.1 F
Return Line at Compressor: 80 F (Suction line near pallet 48 F)
Note: suction pressure is very stable, not like +/- 0.5 psi oscillation last night near end of cycle
Plate 1 is 7 - 11F
Plate 2 is 2F except near bottom where it rises to 5 and then 10 F

Time 30 min
High Pressure: 84 psi
Low Pressure: 10 psi
Frost: Suction line near pallet just froze up, line on pallet is sweating
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 177 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 72 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 7.9 F
Return Line at Compressor: 85 F (Suction line near pallet -2.5 F)
Plate 1 is 4 - 7 F
Plate 2 is -2 to 1F across 95% of face one spot is 7F, thermostat probe is 11F

Time 40 min
High Pressure: 80 psi
Low Pressure: 9.75 psi with +/- 0.25 PSI oscillation
Frost: Suction line on pallet frosted, sight glass is still full
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 177 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 72 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 7.9 F
Return Line at Compressor: 86 F (Suction line near pallet frosted)

Thermostat just turned off system at same setting as last night.

Turned back on to see if it will get lower...

Time 50 min
High Pressure: 80 psi
Low Pressure: 9.75 psi with +/- 0.25 PSI oscillation
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 202 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 71 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 7.6 F
Return Line at Compressor: 86 F (Suction line near pallet Frosted)
Notes: Entire plate 2 is below 0 except the area right near the thermostat well which is 8 - 10 F
Plate 1 is below 2 F across entire surface

Time 60 min
High Pressure: 79 psi
Low Pressure: 10.0 psi with +/- 0.25 PSI oscillation
Frost:
Compressor to Condenser Temp: hot = 212 F
Condenser to Receiver line: 71 F
Return line at exit of plate 2 TxBulb: 7.6 F
Return Line at Compressor: 88 F (Suction line near pallet Frosted)

Ran thermostat down, after 20 additional minutes the position of the shutoff similar.

[Richard Kollmann]

Final 220 volt poor performance assumptions

There is so much information to review so see if my performance facts are correct after unit runs for one hour:

Sight glass is clear with maybe a few small bubbles.

High liquid pressure refrigerant never reaches normal operating range of 115 to 135 Psi.

Low suction refrigerant pressure 8 to 11 Psi. Low high pressure must be corrected first before adjusting TEX.

Temperature of refrigerant vapor in high pressure line leaving compressor and going to condenser is 175 to over 200 degrees F. This high temperature would indicate very high pressure interring seawater condenser, and high pressure at high pressure service port also but it does not.

After restricting water flow through condenser you were not able to raise high pressure to an acceptable level, But compressor temperature increased causing thermo disc to trip.

Pressure/Temperature differential in high pressure side would indicate a restriction but you report no cooling from condenser outlet through line, receiver and filter/dryer until line reaches Expansion valve.

MY BEST GUESS AT THIS POINT

Very high compressor and refrigerant vapor line temperature to condenser and less than desirable liquid pressure and good line temperature after condenser would indicate a flow restriction in seawater condenser.

For the condenser to cause refrigerant flow to be restricted I would think this trouble would have existed sense the last time the inlet line at condenser was soldered on to condenser.

Sorry this is the best theory I can come up with.
Richard Kollmann

[botanybay]

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

Final 220 volt poor performance assumptions

There is so much information to review so see if my performance facts are correct after unit runs for one hour:

Thank yoyu very much!!! I really appreciate your insights

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

Sight glass is clear with maybe a few small bubbles.

Thinking about it I will watch very carefully on start to convince myself that the sight glass is full rather than empty.

Often I never see bubbles, I had assumed that since the receiver for the system can hold over 80 oz of refrigerant I might not see the startup.

I remember seeing refrigerant fill the sight glass vigorously once a long time ago.

Late in the cycle (after a couple of hours) the sight glass can end up about half full and stay that way, I can see fluid moving through the glass at that point.

Definitely worth revisiting to be sure of the initial assumptions.

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

High liquid pressure refrigerant never reaches normal operating range of 115 to 135 Psi.

Correct, in the first few minutes I might see pressures as high as 105 - 108PSI on the high side and then drop down into the 90s.

I will try using a bucket of water to raise the water temperature and see if I can get a stable increase in temperature and therefore pressure.

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

Low suction refrigerant pressure 8 to 11 Psi. Low high pressure must be corrected first before adjusting TEX.

Thank you for the clarification on the importance of the high side pressure being the first order of buisness rather than chasing other adjustments.

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

Temperature of refrigerant vapor in high pressure line leaving compressor and going to condenser is 175 to over 200 degrees F. This high temperature would indicate very high pressure interring seawater condenser, and high pressure at high pressure service port also but it does not.

Definitely no indication post salt water heat exchanger of any temperature drop which I would expect if either the receiver, dryer, or sight glass had an obstruction.

I had incorrectly assumed that this was more related to the case temperature of the compressor. Feeling around the back of the compressor to find the high pressure port it may be even hotter than where I have been measuring about an inch from the connection to the salt water heat exchanger inlet. I will connect a thermocouple close to the high pressure exit from the compressor and see what temperatures I find.

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

After restricting water flow through condenser you were not able to raise high pressure to an acceptable level, But compressor temperature increased causing thermo disc to trip.

That is correct. Compressor case temperature was also quite high (around 240F if memory serves)

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

Pressure/Temperature differential in high pressure side would indicate a restriction but you report no cooling from condenser outlet through line, receiver and filter/dryer until line reaches Expansion valve.

At the start of cycle (after perhaps 20 min) I can see about 2F of water temperature per coil, i.e. 72F inlet water, 74F on first coil, 76F on second coil, 78F at exit of heat exchanger.

The output of the heat exchanger goes into the high pressure to low pressure heat exchanger.

The temperatures I have reported for going into the compressor are taken after the High pressure to low pressure heat exchanger a couple of inches from the compressor body. The temperature of the suction line a few more inches away is much lower. The temp of the compressor return is mostly driven by compressor case temperature and probably refrigerant flow rate.

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

MY BEST GUESS AT THIS POINT

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

Very high compressor and refrigerant vapor line temperature to condenser and less than desirable liquid pressure and good line temperature after condenser would indicate a flow restriction in seawater condenser.

I assume you are meaning a refrigerant side restriction rather than a salt water side restriction?

Question: If air had gotten into the system from the refrigerant side leak inside of the removed refrigerator plate could incompressibles in the system cause these types of issues? The plate was simply removed and the lines capped, the system was NOT evacuated and refilled at that point. The solonoids and check valves resulted in no significant refrigerant loss between removing the plate and capping the high pressure and suction lines for the refrigerantion loop.

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

For the condenser to cause refrigerant flow to be restricted I would think this trouble would have existed sense the last time the inlet line at condenser was soldered on to condenser

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

Sorry this is the best theory I can come up with.
Richard Kollmann

I looked carefully at all of the connections and I don't see any indication of service since leaving the factory so if so it was an original issue with the system. Definitely worth considering though.

Thank you again for all of the insights!

[Richard Kollmann]

You know there is a pressure/temperature problem with refrigerant moving through the liquid side of system. At this point you need to start all over by finding out the type of oil in compressor and what refrigerant compressor manufacturer designed it to use. These compressors come with Mineral or Alkylbenzene or Polyol Ester oil. Then you must stay with a pure refrigerant that is compatible with the oil. Blended Refrigerants should be avoided if possible.

Before re-servicing with correct oil system’s solenoid’s must be powered open and system dehydrated for several hours at a vacuum of less than 400 Microns. It is best to install a new filter dryer after removing old refrigerant. Now add only two pounds of correct refrigerant and power up compressor. If after 10 minutes low pressure is less than 5 psi add refrigerant. Do not add refrigerant at this time based on what is seen in sight glass. Sight glass on many holding plate systems will not show up full until plates are frozen. Even when plates are frozen full or ½ full glass will depend on size glass used and its position orientation.

[botanybay]

Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann

You know there is a pressure/temperature problem with refrigerant moving through the liquid side of system. At this point you need to start all over by finding out the type of oil in compressor and what refrigerant compressor manufacturer designed it to use. These compressors come with Mineral or Alkylbenzene or Polyol Ester oil. Then you must stay with a pure refrigerant that is compatible with the oil. Blended Refrigerants should be avoided if possible.

Before re-servicing with correct oil system’s solenoid’s must be powered open and system dehydrated for several hours at a vacuum of less than 400 Microns. It is best to install a new filter dryer after removing old refrigerant. Now add only two pounds of correct refrigerant and power up compressor. If after 10 minutes low pressure is less than 5 psi add refrigerant. Do not add refrigerant at this time based on what is seen in sight glass. Sight glass on many holding plate systems will not show up full until plates are frozen. Even when plates are frozen full or ½ full glass will depend on size glass used and its position orientation.

About the same conclusion I have come to at this point, I very much appreciate the help!

I did manage to get the system running with a bucket of 95F water and got reasonable high side pressures (135psi), I will push the data later but it was equally confusing.

The biggest question: The failed fridge plate was a Gruenart plate which claims a water and salt solution as the Eutectic solution but it might have been refilled at some point with Glycol. If either of these were to have contaminated the system will having the system pumped down clear these out?

If not, will the residuals result in eventual failure of the system even with a long pump down to clear them out?

Thanks again! I have learned alot about the system.

[bstreep]

Great exchange. Where was this 6 months ago...

We have a 110V Passagemaker. We've spent about as much as it would have cost to replace ours, on it. That being said, it's (knock on wood) working just fine - actually, better than it's worked since we got the boat!

Some comments:

Richard mentioned an accumulator. The system comes, apparently, with a very small one. We had a "real" accumulator added.

We replaced the heat exchanger coils on ours. It did help quite a bit. Ours came with a single loop, and the replacement came with a double loop. We also cleaned the system with an acid solution, as recommended by the manufacturer. Yours, with 5 coils, may be exchanging too well? Especially since you now have only 2 cold plates (with the missing freezer plate having a much higher demand).

Our water pump was oversized. There's a LOT of conflicting info about "contact time". But, we went down in size of our March circulation pump.

Richard mentioned a cooling water bypass. We've added that. It seems a bit weird, but Grunert has told us that "colder is not necessarily better". We will bypass some cooling water during the cooler months.

Thermostats: We replaced both. In the grand scheme of things, they aren't that expensive: $60+/-.

Also check to see if there's a valve in your system for your fridge. Our refrigerator will run ONLY when the freezer is on. It's a fairly simple solenoid/valve system. If you have one, PM me and I'll hook you up. Dometic/Grunert wants like $280 for one. I put one together with the 2 identical components for about $30. These can and do fail - our countertop has an access specifically for it, so...

We also put ours on a timer, at one point (long story). I've been monitoring it, and while we've got it set to run for an hour a day, twice a day, it only runs about 20 minutes of that time, and then it shuts off because we're plenty cold (-10 to 15C on the freezer, just below 0C on the fridge).

Ours runs R404. Because of trouble getting a tech where we are (no one wants to work on boat refrigeration), I went through the process to get EPA certified ($25 and an open book test). You do NOT need a license to buy R404 (or 409?). Make sure you have the right refrigerant AND the right oil.

I think I'd be concerned about contamination of the system. Richard recommended evacuation and a vacuum, and then refill (and replace the dryer). I think that's a great idea. If nothing else, it removes that question from your equation.

Like I said, I only know enough about this stuff to pass the test. Otherwise, I'm a moron. But, I did want to chime in and let you know what our experience has been.